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Hey Darryl, I read a whole lot of sour grapes in that post.

Isn't the most important question whether or not God is being glorified? If you have a mega church and God is being glorified and is working through you ministry to transform people that would be a good thing right?

If God is being glorified in your "missional" church and lives are being transformed that also would be a good thing right?

Doesn't it all come down to God being glorified?

Doesn't it all come down to whether or not you are a God centered church or a man centered church?

Probably in both scenarios you will find good and bad. There can be very excellent large churches where God is clearly at work and there can be small "missional" (still not exactly sure what they mean by missional) churches where God is at work.

One of the huge advantages of a larger church would be the type of ministries you can organize and use as you reach out to a lost and dying world. Don't you think?

George,

I think the question is what type of structure allows the church to be the church. I think David has shown us some ways in which it's harder for larger congregations to function as a church. It's not impossible - there are many larger churches that I really respect. But in a culture that worships bigger as better and confuses an audience with a church, David's words provide a good challenge.

So do you agree, the size of the church is irrelevant, its what's going on in the church that matters?

George:

Larger churches have their unique challenges. I don't want to say that they can't be the church. However, it's harder for them to move beyond being an audience/show than it is for smaller, more organic communities.

Darryl, just came back from a leadership conference at the Brooklyn Tabernacle and after witnessing what the Lord is doing through that ministry, I couldn't disagreee with you more.

What I took away again from that ministry is the simplicity of the Gospel. There is such a hunger there for the Lord, there is such reverance and love for God that is almost beyond description. Its not complicated, they love and obey God and in return God blesses them and lives are transformed. God is so clearly at work. They are a larege church with many different ministries that reach out to those in the inner city. You will not find a church anywhere where the love for God, that then also shows itself in their love for people so clearly expressed as at the Brooklyn Tabernacle. A larger church that is being blessed by God can do so much more as they all work together for His glory.

Think of your church so close to so many needs, as you consider a community like Willowridge. What kind of a church could have a significant impact on a community like that? How could the existing churches in Toronto be more intentional in how they reach out to the inner ciy communities? Could it begin with calling out to the Lord in prayer?

At the Brooklyn Tabernacle the Tuesday night prayer meeting is the driving engine of everything that happens there. God blesses that richly as He sees His people calling out to Him. He's promised in His Word to do that and its just so clear there that He is faithful to His Word. What an incredible example of a church that seeks the Lord and is all about obedience. What an incredible example of how God still blesses obedience.

That's OK, George. You're allowed to disagree. ;)

Unless I'm reading it wrong, I don't think the issue is big churches vs. little churches, or prayer vs. no prayer (where's the argument there?). The issue is that it's easy to miss what God is doing in smaller churches because we think that big equals successful. We miss some of what God is doing in the places that don't hold conferences and that don't get written up in magazines.

And I think it's important to recognize some of the temptations that come with getting big. Some large churches are built on personality, performance, and consumerism. Even the ones that aren't face a lot of challenges. People get lost in the audience and true community and fellowship is quite a challenge in larger settings.

Many pastors and churches feel like they're failures if they're not big megachurches. David's post is refreshing. Pastoring a smaller, organic community is hard work, but it's worth it.

Hey Darryl, I was thinking about this a bit more.

As I have read so many of the emerging/liberal blogs over these last few years it seems they are very good at railing against what they would call fundamentalist churches, but I don't read much of what God is actually doing through their own churches and ministries. Why is that do you think?

If God really is doing a new thing through the emerging church why is it they don't testify to that? I don't understand that part. Instead of railing against everything they are against, why don't some of them tell us what God is doing through their ministries. I think the absence of that speaks volumes. If God is at work in your church or in your life isn't that something you would want to testify about?

I guess it all comes down to the fruit, you will know them by their fruit. Are there things going on in the emerging church somewhere that can only being explained by the supernatural work of God? If so, where? I read a lot about what they are having a conversation over but I don't read much of the work of God. Its the work of man. It just really raises a whole lot of questions as to why that might be.

Coming back from the Brooklyn Tabernacle again its just incredibly awesome to see how God can use a ministry as the people rely on and are obedient to Him. That whole church is a miracle in progress, people who have been written off by the rest of the world have come to know God through that ministry. How does that happen? It all starts with obedience and holiness that comes from their love for God and His Word as they respond to His great love for them.

I don't read that on emerging blogs. I don't read a love for God and commitment to His Word. I read so much linkage to the world and to the philosophies of the world and so much doubt and ambiguity when it comes to dealing with His Word.

Just wanted to share that with you on this beautiful Saturday afternoon as I continue to reflect of these issues.

Are you getting back to the issue of repentance anytime soon like you said you were going to? I'm looking forward to that.

George:

Here's the thing: if we fight the emerging church vs. the established church battle, we're wasting our time. I'm tired of that debate. It's fruitless and doesn't make sense anyway.

I know you keep circling back to the emerging church with a somewhat negative view, but I'm not really interested in defending the emerging church. I think there's some good stuff and some bad there but I don't really have any interest in holding them up as the answer.

I think we all need to realize that we're in this all together, and we all need the spiritual passion you talk about. On the other hand, we all need to look at the structures as well to see if any of them are getting in the way. The issue isn't them (whoever the them is). The issue is us.

In any case, I will get to that repentance issue sooner or later, I promise!