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I'll probably sound exactly like a Pharisee by bringing this up, but while I agree that our definition of holiness may need to be rethought, it seems to me that Jesus did care a great deal about holiness---moreso, in fact, than the Pharisees. You'll recall that whole "You've heard it said...but I tell you..." sequence in the Sermon on the Mount.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with Mortoia's overall point---certainly Jesus argued that any holiness the Pharisees might have had was very shallow or "surfacy"---I just question the notion of Jesus not giving a "hoot" about holiness. I suppose it depends on the context: holiness in what sense? for salvation? for obedience? as an act of worship?

Anyway, I hope I don't get lynched for this. I don't disagree with Martoai overall...

Does he really believe that pluralistic theology will save you (ie. the James Brown comment)?

There are some fundamental issues we need to confident and not ashamed that we're right, other secondary issues are debatable and we need not be as dogmatic.

Marc and Jacob,

I'm with you. I don't think Drew and I would agree about a lot of things. And of course, Jesus did care about holiness - just not about superficial levels of conformity that masquerade as holiness.

Ron's point is part of a larger one in how Jesus related to "sinners." I think he's pushing us to think about the way Jesus related to sinners, and how we do.

I appreciate the overall point. Through years of teaching, we've seen the Pharisees as wearing black hats. In reality, it's more like we (I) are looking in the mirror at times.

"But the antagonism toward the church felt by many in our society suggests that the world has experienced us more as the Pharisees than as Jesus... "

That's what so many in the church are looking for, the acceptance of the world. They will water down the message in whatever way necessary to get that acceptance. Don't talk about sin and the redemption of man, don't talk about holiness or godliness or righteousness, talk about redeeming creation and environment concerns and social justice. Become just like any other social service agency with a little Jesus thrown in for good measure.

Pardon my sarcasm but didn't Jesus say that we shouldn't be surprised if the world hates us, it hated Him first. Look what they did to Him, why are we all so concerend about how the "world" feels about us. We should be more concerend about honouring Him and living for His glory then we should about how the world views us.

Don't you think?

George,

If our goal is to be like Jesus, our message will be the same as his. That's what we can all agree on. His message is much meatier than what we sometimes offer.

I also presume that we will be friends of sinners like he was. Jesus was able to say that the world hated him, yet the people who seemed to be drawn most to him were of questionable character.

I agree with you that we shouldn't sell out in an effort to appeal to people. But maybe some of us are at times more like the Pharisees we are Jesus?

"If our goal is to be like Jesus, our message will be the same as his."

Amen - his message in its entirety.

Interesting.
As a media person I thought it was pretty funny, It was unintentionally entertaining.

As a Christian, Marshall's response to a simple typical religious TV interview question floored me. "What has Jesus done in your life?"

I've been haunted by his answer - as Christ-centric as anything I may ever hear on a religious TV show.

That having been said I think hosts and guest were clear about their cultural differences, and what was not spoken, showed.

Of course we are the Pharisees, I can't see that as arguable.

I think 100 Huntley Street's decision not to rebroadcast and to remove it from their site is simply about money, they have donors to keep happy. 100 Huntley Street is a business, and like it or not it is a business in a competitive marketplace.
And let's be real here, you had a radio host who does a 4 hour show and a couple that hosts an hour show.
Different universes, different skill sets.

So a couple of professional Christian communicators made us think and feel.
Good!
For me this is not some weighty theological debate, how any of us see that interview is going to be through our own cultural experience.

This was a quick TV interview, not an either/or, win/lose, us/them war.

George,

I don't necessarily think the social gospel is watering anything down. It forces is to leave our buildings and engage with culture. Something most evangelicals stink at. It forces evangelicals to be friends with people they disagree with. Something evangelicals stink at too.

I think the problem comes when we say the social gospel is the whole gospel, or the whole gospel is about getting you into heaven. Both extremes present enormous problems.

I hope to be more like Jesus. A friend to sinners, and a thorn in religiosity. I really think we need to look at the example of Jesus and ask, was it only about heaven?

Rob

I guess the question Rob is - do you know you are going to heaven? If so, don't you want to help as many people as you can get there also.

So yes we help out, we engage, we are friends with sinners, we feed, we clothe and we tell them about the good news that can set them free, the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I totally don't get people who tell me they themselves are saved but have no interest in telling others about Jesus. They just want me to know about how they are so involved in social justice issues and are being so "missional." Never any talk about what it is that sepearates man from God in the first place, its our sin.

Everyone has to deal with the sin issue if they want a relationship with God and peace with Him.

Don't hear about that too much if at all from the emerging/liberal church.

You're right Rob its got to be both.

Hi George,

I don't really want this blog to be about the emerging or liberal church. These past few posts have been about what the Gospel is and how we live it. It's too easy to look at other groups and not to look at ourselves, which is far more important.

I think we generally agree that the Gospel calls us to care about people holistically, and that includes spiritually.

I will challenge you a bit: is the Gospel really about "going to heaven"?

How about this Darryl John 3:16. That sums up the Gospel quite well. Heaven is certainly included in eternal life. If people reject Jesus Christ they will perish. What does that mean? That means they will go to hell. Do we who are saved really care about that? Jesus does, he died for them and is not willing that any should suffer but that all should come to repentance. So what do you think the gospel is for - the redemption of man or the redemption of creation?

I don't get it, why all this downplaying of helping people get saved? Why did Jesus die on a cross? Why did He come? Where does it say that He came to redeem creation? Creation is groaning and will continue to groan until He returns and creates a new heaven and a new earth. Isn't that what the Bible teaches?
We got to care about the creation of course but where does it say He died on a cross to redeem creation?

Hi George,

Is heaven where we will live one day? Or is it the new earth?

How would you define the Kingdom of God, which is what Jesus seemed to talk about a lot?

What does Luke 4:18-20 tell us about Jesus' ministry?

You mentioned that amazing passage in Romans 8 about creation groaning. What does Romans 8:19-21 tell us about the earth as it relates to Christ's work?

Sorry to ask so many questions. I think it's helpful to frame it Scripturally.

Ok Darryl, this is good except you are answering questions by asking your own. I'd love to engage you more but can't right now. Got an early morning coming and you know me by now I'm not copping out (pardon the pun)that's just the way it is.

I like the questions and briefly looked up those references. I love it.

What I'd like to hear is your take on it all.

Are most people in our world on the broad road to destruction or the narrow road to life? If its the broad road to destruction as Jesus said, how should His people be responding to that. How should we be helping people see the Savior? How should we be, helping them get off the broad road and onto the narrow road. Is it by redeeming creation or telling them the truth?
What is truth?

George:

I appreciate the exchange. Honestly, I will answer your questions, but only if you promise to try to figure out what I am saying first before you accuse me of downplaying something or other or being liberal or whatever! You can accuse me of that eventually but not until we've looked at the Scriptures together.

My theology professor told me years ago that people thought he was a heretic because he challenged people to think biblically, even if it upset closely held beliefs. Sometimes I am surprised that what I thought I believed isn't always there in Scripture. It's funny because we claim to believe in sola Scriptura - not quite the way we live!

Sometimes it seems that the goal is to make people squirm more than help people live right or know God better. It's rather juvenile. So - if I say Jesus didn't give a hoot about holiness or purity of doctrine, that ought to get a reaction. It's old and tired and transparent and yet gets treated like some revolutionary type of thinking or even sometimes as exegesis. Sheesh.

Ken:

I was wondering what it would take to get you to comment!

So we all agree that holiness and doctrine are important. The point in the quote is that nobody cared more for holiness and doctrine in Jesus' day than the Pharisees...and they missed God right in front of them.

The answer isn't to throw away holiness and doctrine. The point is that we never lose sight of Jesus in our pursuit of these. (Ron doesn't say to ditch holiness. He says in this quote, "We need to rethink our definition of holiness." As for doctrine, his whole book is about doctrine that is more true to Scripture.)

I don't see where anyone has called that part of Ron's statement revolutionary or good exegesis. In fact, I wish Ron had phrased this differently. It's easy to pile on him for a statement, taken out of context, with which we disagree. It's a bit unfair to take one statement and judge his motives. Overall the book is prompting us to be more biblical and to recover the Gospel in its fullness - a goal I know that you embrace as well.

His overall point still stands: When I read Scripture, I tend to pile on the Pharisees like they are the bad guys. Is that the point, or are we supposed to see that the danger of missing Jesus while pursuing holiness and purity is a danger that we face too?

George:

Let me answer some of your questions now.

I wasn't intending to downplay eternal life, the reality of judgment, or the benefits of following Christ at all. All those are real and important.

I really do believe that the Gospel provides hope, and that people are lost without it.

I was trying to challenge the idea that the Gospel is primarily about going to heaven when we die for a few reasons:

First, the Gospel isn't primarily about me, It's about God. I know you agree with this. It's true that we benefit from the Gospel but I'm pretty sure the benefits that we enjoy are not the main point.

Second, I think it's worth pursuing the idea that our future home will not be heaven but in the new earth.

Finally, eternal life includes heaven, but it's much more. Willard writes:

"The eternal life that begins with confidence in Jesus is a life in His present kingdom, now on earth and available to all. So the message of and about him is specifically a gospel for our life now, not just for dying. It is about living now as his apprentice in kingdom living, not just as a consumer of his merits. Our future, however far we look, is a natural extension of the faith by which we live now and the life in which we now participate."

Hope this helps a little. Feel free to question if you think I'm dodging your questions or being unclear.

Darryl, I like the Willard quote and agree. Also, I wasn't accusing you of downplaying or being liberal so if you thought I was personalizing, I wasn't and I apologize if it came across that way.

You're blog is always an interesting read and its also where I started in blog land way back when.

There are some things I don't quite get about what I read on your blog but that's another story.

Its also interesting to me the connection with Resonate, when I see some of the views expressed by other Resonate bloggers and how far off the mark I believe they are.

I also believe there is so much false teaching going around, its incredible and all the people that get sucked into that is just tragic. Those who know the truth and are engaged in that, wow, what an accounting there will be.

It amazes me how people will say they love Jesus but will not tell other people the truth about the message of Jesus in its entirety.

I'm out of time again but just in regards to this the quote about holiness. The Pharisees missed the point because they weren't fixed on Jesus, they were fixed on their external conduct and holiness for others to see. In that sense their holiness was a joke because their hearts were far from holy.

However as followers of Christ our lives should be all about holiness and righteousness and godliness not because we are pursuing that but rather because we are pursuing Christ. Not because we have to but we want to out of a deep gratitude for what He has done for us. As soon as we begin to compromise on that and allow the world or patterns of sin into our lives that will effect the state of our relationship with Him. I believe He withdraws from us as He sees us pursuing the world and the things of the world.

I believe one of the biggest areas of compromise in the life of professing believers is in how they laugh along with the world in the junk that they watch and listen to.

Just as an example you got a guy in Resonate who (I think he's a friend of yours) on his blog links to the show Trailer Park Boys. When you click on the link you will hear one of the actors say "This f...ing show is the best g..d.. show on TV" (I stand corrected he removed the audio and now the link is to the the Trailer Park Boys movie, a movie every discerning Christian should watch.)

I ask you is that conduct becoming of a Christian? Do we really think Christ would just laugh along with us as we professing Christians sit down to watch some garbage like that? Its absolutely incredible to me. But here's the thing, the guy leads a church and would teach and lecture the church on how to be missional.

As we love Christ and seek to live righteously for Him and in communion with Him does that make any sense to you?

"However as followers of Christ our lives should be all about holiness and righteousness and godliness not because we are pursuing that but rather because we are pursuing Christ."

George, right on.

Again, I don't want to get into specific people or situations - that is best done in a different context - but I agree that we need to really get the Gospel, be transformed by it, and let it flow through us.

Darryl, you state often that we (and you include yourself) don't really know what the Gospel is but yet your throw it around throughout your posts and comments. Could you please define it for us? I believe that would help us understand where you're coming from.

Darryl,

1) All it takes for me to comment is a little stirring up of the right juices. All my comment is about is fatigue at the same old same old. The statement he made about Jesus not giving a hoot about holiness or doctrine is so far out that there is no way he could believe it. It is obviously made to garner reaction and that is so wearisome. "Just make your point."

2)You say:"It's easy to pile on him for a statement, taken out of context, with which we disagree. It's a bit unfair to take one statement and judge his motives." I don't do anyhting the easy way - you should know that.;)I haven't read the book you took the quote from, and it seems a little unfair to me to blame me for taking something out of context when you posted the out of context thing to be commented on. Either supply the context or allow out of context statements.

3) You said:"The point in the quote is that nobody cared more for holiness and doctrine in Jesus' day than the Pharisees." The Pharisees did not care about holiness and doctrine. They cared about themselves. Holiness is Godlikeness and doctrine is Truth. A group of men who plotted to kill a resurrected man so that people would not follow Jesus do not care about either (John 12:9ff). Trash them for their legalism, their self righteousness, their misinterpretation of the Law and their misdefinition of holiness and truth. Then say that like them we misdefine these same things and maybe more, and like them we chase after the wrong things - but make no mistake, the misdefined things are neither holiness nor truth.

4)If anyone cared about holiness and doctrine, it was Jesus. "Sanctify them(make them holy)by your truth (doctrine). Your word is truth." To emphasize holiness and truth is to be more like Jesus than to be like the Pharisees. (And we should quote Paul in this regard too, because everything he wrote that we have left for us in the New Testament is Jesus speaking.)

5)You said: "are we supposed to see that the danger of missing Jesus while pursuing holiness and purity is a danger that we face too?" I understand what you are saying here. We chase Jesus, not what He produces in us. And I agree. But we are commanded to pursue both holiness and doctrine and so we need to be careful about the way we categorically say things. It is impossible to chase after true holiness and true doctrine without pursuing Jesus. No one can capture true holiness and doctrine and not have Jesus. Without holiness no one will see the Lord. We are made holy through the truth (doctrine)of the Word. One can achieve a goal of false holiness and false doctrine without Him, but not the real thing. If that is what Martoia is getting at then I am with him all the way. But his cutesy little manner of saying that Jesus didn't care at all about holiness or doctrine just seems so juvenile to me. If I missed the context forgive me - but supply it next time.

Jacob:

I didn't mean to say that we don't know what the gospel is. However, I do think that we often don't grasp, communicate, and live the gospel in its fullness.

I like Tim Keller's definition I posted last week: "The gospel is that God himself has come to rescue and renew creation through the work and in the work of Jesus Christ on our behalf."

This definition has two aspects. "The trajectory or purpose of the gospel is a renewed material creation. The means is by sheer grace, and not by works."

Ken:

It's good to have you back, my friend.

What does "rescue and renew creation" mean?

Hi Jacob,

It's about restoring God's reign over all creation. God says, "I am making everything new!" Sin disrupted every area of life in this world. God is restoring his reign so that his will is done on earth as it is in heaven.

Jesus announced that the kingdom is present - the "already but not yet" concept. In Jesus' ministry we get samples of what the restoration of the kingdom looks like. We get to participate in that as well while we wait for its full arrival.

Thanks

"Sin disrupted every area of life in this world. God is restoring his reign so that his will is done on earth as it is in heaven."

Sin is still disrupting every area of life in this world isn't it?

"God is restoring his reign so that his will is done on earth as it is in heaven."

Did God lose His reign somewhere along the line that He now has to restore it?

Isn't it true that sin still has its way on this earth? Isn't it true that God has made a way though, for man to be redeemed? Isn't that the story of the Bible from beginning to end.

You asked me where we will live one day the new heaven or the new earth. I looked that up and I don't know if its a trick kind of question, but we who are in Christ are waiting for the new heaven and the new earth.

Peter says this: 2 Peter 3: 10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies[b] will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.[c] 11Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

That's amazing. Interesting how verse 11 speaks of holiness and godliness.

But what's even more amazing to me is the previous verse 9: 9The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,[a] not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

There's that word perish again. But God's not wishing that, He's wishing that all shoud reach repentance. That speaks again to what the Gospel is, the work of Christ that leads to redemption for those who put their trust in Him.

I love how God's Word has all the answers. So what should our message be to a dying world? What should our message be to the millions upon millions who are lost but don't know it? Who will perish but don't know it. Who think that their goodness towards others is what is going to save them although they have rejected Christ. Or what should our message be to those who don't give a hoot about holiness, but who still claim to be in Christ and would point us to their good works as evidence of that?

Rev 21 is a great place to look for a description of that new heaven and that new earth
" 1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place[a] of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people,[b] and God himself will be with them as their God.[c] 4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."

So I don't know if this is exactly right but that tells me that it will be new, a new heaven and a new earth, that at that point all wickedness will have been dealt with (looking at the previous chapter) so I as a sinner saved by grace, as one of the redeemed, will be in this new universe consisting of all things new. In that sense it will all be heavenly. When we allow ourselves to really consider the truth of this new heaven and this new earth where we will dwell forever, that should stir something within us don't you think?
Think of this life in the light of eternity. We are but a vapor, eternity is forever. I think if Christians would live their lives more in the light of eternity their conduct and their message would be more in line with Christ's. It seems to me we should have a much more sense of urgency as we consider how incredibly messed up our world is and how many will perish.

Verse 8 tells us though who will not be there "8But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

So what is the gospel message for our world in 2007?

Hi George,

You have some good stuff there.

Jesus told us to pray, "Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

It's staggering to think that, as far as we know, earth is the only place where God's will is not always done. We are praying that earth one day becomes a place where God's will is done and where evil is vanquished.

So no, God did not lose his reign, but as all of us know, God's will is not always done on earth. We are praying that it will one day be otherwise. When Jesus said that the Kingdom was among us, he indicated that through his life and work that God's reign was being restored.

"When Jesus said that the Kingdom was among us, he indicated that through his life and work that God's reign was being restored"

Amen Darryl