DashHouse.com

Hey Darryl, great timing on this post, i just posted up a response to Examining Emergent on my site too.

I think that we hit on the same thing when you said

"I don't think that any of the following qualities I'm about to list are unique to the emerging church. But they could possibly be gifts that can be shared and appreciated by the church at large."

That is my problem with critques or even lists of appreciations of movements. We always have to qualify what we are saying that it may or may not include everyone. That is what exists within every movement, the diversity is quite large the larger the movement gets. So while you can make lists of goods, there are going to be many emergents who don't think like that and while there can be lists of bads made, many will not adhere to that either. It makes me wonder what the point is in crituqing movements and maybe it should be more directed to individuals.

Darryl,

Could I add Relevance? The Emerging Churches want to hash out and discuss those issues that are relevant to the culture at large. We want to engage in honest dialogue with people about what is relevant to them.

Rob

I was thinking of adding something about authenticity too, but my list is probably long enough.

I'd be curious what you mean by relevance, Rob. Maybe next time we meet I can ask you in person.

The Dash Has Spoken!

Thanks for this, Darryl. I am too busy to reply today, but I will link to it and try to get back here in the next couple of days.

Nathan - thanks for your comments on the examiningemergent blog, too. Same thing there as far as response time...

Darryl "They suggest that the Gospel is about individuals and it does involve the future, but it is also about God acting through Jesus to heal, renew, and restore the reign of God to all creation."

If our life is just the initial dot on the never ending line of eternity how is that eternal destiny not the most important part of the Gospel. How is helping people see their need for the Saviour not the most important part?

What I read from the emerging church is social gospel. I read more about social activism then I do about sharing the good news of Jesus Christ that can set people free.

I just talked to a guy two nights ago, saved by Almighty God from a life of crack addiction and alcoholism. Absolutely blown away by God's forgivenness in his life. Has a journey ahead of him to stay straight, but knows he can't do it without God in his life. A life truly transformed and humbled by the greatness of God and what He has done in his life.

I don't read about stories like that in the emerging church blogland where I find myself on occasion. I read about the emergers wanting to feed guys like him and maybe lobby city hall for him but actually pointing him to the Saviour I don't read too much about.

The more I read about the emergeing church the more I think its a bunch of folks in the 20s and 30s who got disillusioned with whatever church they came from and wanted to get radical and do their own thing. Salvation doesn't seem to be important, its all about their activism.
There are of course exceptions.

Those are some of my observations about the emerging church.

I've been reading Martin's series. He speaks American very well, and I'm getting something out of what he has written, even though I don't think it's directed to lay people.
Thanks for posting this.

George:

Don't forget the point of this post is to ask if the emerging church makes any positive contribution to the church as a whole. I'm taking it that your answer is no.

"Arts - We are created to be creative. The emerging church believes that art is sometimes the best way to express reality."

I would suggest we are created to honour God and His word. Where do the emerging types derive the use of their favourite arts in worship from Scripture? Where does the Bible teach that we are to be "creative" in our worship? I know there are examples to the opposite that I could post for you here (Lev. 10; Deut. 4; Isa. 66), but I don't know of any that would support your claim. I see this as perhaps the biggest negative of the EC. It certainly seems this is (one of) the medium by which the world is imported into the church and services turned into something we find entertaining rather than God finds glorifying. Since when has fingerpainting and sculpture been acceptable forms of worship?

I think we may have has this discussion before but I've never seen one Biblical/logical defense for the use of Arts in worship.

I think your list is generally good (with a few exceptions) but I would say that they are hardly the exclusive property of EC types.

I think George's comment regarding disillusionment and it's contributions to fostering EC, is worth persuing, Darryl.

Is the EC truly a spirit driven expression of Christianity or the collective complaint of those who feel personally distanced from or disenchanted with, traditional forms of purpose and worship.

If the former, say so. Convict me. If the latter, I am honestly convicted to warn you of the great harm you are causing to yourselves and others.

All of us struggle with the notion of "losing our lives", in order to find life with Christ. I though am concerned that the EC has become a breeding ground for apostacy in that it seems to insist on cultural relevence(human self-importance) at the expense of seeking God's will, in effect transcending our own cultures, so that we may be more perfect, like Him.

In your heart, as Christians, should we first be asking how to make Christianity more culturally relavent or should we be asking how to make culture more "Christlike". I don't mean to suggest that these two perspective are mutually exclusive but rather that the EC dangerously, in my opinion, prioritizes culture before faith.

Darrin:

I suppose some would suggest that God wants us to glorify Him with both our left and right brains, and that Scripture contains examples of people who worshiped using poetry, song, dance, etc.

Paul:

I am not trying to evaluate the ec in this post. Instead I'm asking if the ec has anything positive to offer the church. In other words, even if every criticism against the ec ever offered was true, is there anything at all to be commended? I've found that even the harshest critic can usually find one or two positives in among all the negatives.

Well, this Saturday is earth day and I know of one emerging church that is encouraging folks to bring out their garbage bags to help clean up garbage in their community.

I think that's great for the community and if they would be picking up garbage near other churches that would be good for those churches so that would be offering something positive - at least to those churches:) (Its a joke, its only a joke and I know emergents have a good sense of humour right?)

I'm still looking for an answer to a question I posed to an emerging pastor on your blog a while ago Darryl. The question went as follows: "What would you say the difference is between a person who professes to be a born again, Bible believing Christian (say conservative or fundamental if you like) and a professing emergent Christian?

Maybe if an emergent church person could answer that question it might help out in answering your question Darryl.

What! Another Christian movement that doesn't offer much besides a trumped up, self important vision of itself, further fragmenting the body of Christ, oh yeah, that'll help....

Humour of another kind, George.

George, I would hope the similiarities would far outwiegh the differences. I would say one difference (as a recovering fundamentalist) is the Emergent Church's ability to include people who disagree. Conservative, Fundamentalists tend to divide when they disagree, especially over doctrine.

Some people see this quite negatively. They'll say the EC compromises the gospel and reduces the harmful effects of sin, low view of scripture etc. Sometimes this is true, sometimes it's not.

Rob

I still say...emergent smergent.

Thanks Rob. Question - you said: "George, I would hope the similiarities would far outwiegh the differences. I would say one difference (as a recovering fundamentalist) is the Emergent Church's ability to include people who disagree. "
Disagree on what?

Darryl,

I think one very big positive that the emerging culture has brought about is - Discussion.

It's getting many people of many walks of life and differing Christian backgrounds talking about what a Christian is, what Church is, what is following Jesus all about.

Some people may like and others dislike the emerging "whatever", but at least they are talking, reading, studying, and some even doing.

Thanks for your balanced look on things.

DAWN

Hey George,

Here's how I would respond. Darryl and I probably disagree about theology. I'm quite liberal in my theology and Darryl is much more reformed.

But I read Darryl's blogs, and his sermons because I'm convinced that he can teach me. He can show me a glimpse of the Kingdom, and a better understanding of God.

Although we're probably in 2 different place theologically I have no reason to divide from Darryl. I have too much to learn from him.

That hasn't been the case in many conservative evangelical churches that I've seen. If I don't agree with someone's doctrine then we have to stop the conversation and go our seperate ways.

Rob

Thanks for this post, Darryl. I think you've made a good list of positives and I'm looking forward to reading and commenting on your list of negatives.

If anyone's interested, I recently wrote my own series about things the larger evangelical world could learn from the emerging church. It's based on 5 things that Scot McKnight listed in an interview from last year.