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Does he want to show us how cool he is by throwing in the "lets go get a beer" part?

He's never struck me as the type to try to prove how cool he is. I suspect he might be trying to get us to think.

I'm wondering if darryl is a closet drinker and let this one slip out?

Darryl, I never heard of this pastor and I'm sure he's well intentioned, I just don't understand the comment about being missional and getting a beer. He says "The lost need the pastors more than the found according to Jesus."

I think if we are burdened for the lost we'll be careful with what we say because if we actually go out there and be missional we will be dealing with a lot of people who have a problem with beer. We won't be saying to them "lets go for a beer. "

And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with going for a beer but we have to be prudent don't you think?

Trish: Darryl came out of the closet a long time ago!

Oh, sorry. That doesn't sound very good, does it?

George:

Absolutely, George. I don't have a problem with someone having a beer, but he may have overshadowed the point he was making.

He has some good thoughts. I'm enjoying his site and his book quite a bit. Good idea to examine Christ for ideas on how to pastor.

I can't believe the comments about the beer remark. Darryl, give me a call - Pastor Ken will join you for that beer. First one is on me. As for offending people by drinking beer. It is more likely that we offend more non-believers by refusing to join them in one. At the pub I visit not very frequently (lest I offend) the first comment that is made when I walk in is "everyone watch their language the Rev. is here!" It is yelled out by the female bartender (I would say barmaid but that would really offend)who then comes to talk to me about some spiritual issue and complain about her fundamentalist upbringing. My goal with her is to show that embracing Christ is not a matter of all the man made rules she was led to believe Christianity is. She has not yet kept her promise to come to church, but that is in God's hands.

The thing I would take issue with is the implication that pastors are solely missional. It seems to fly in the face of all three of the Pastorals and Ephesians 4:11 don't you think? Or maybe missional should be redefined to include the work of preventing apostasy and bringing people to maturity in the faith. Colossians 2:8 is very much the cry of a biblical pastor. And our goal is to be biblical more than the latest definition of missional isn't it? Come on Darryl, let's debate it over a beer.

Ken, my point wasn't that drinking beer offended me. The point was that if this pastor is truly burdened for the lost, I think he should be careful what he says. There are a lot of people who have big time problems with alcohol and as he's reaching out to them, how does "lets go get a beer" make sense?

So Ken, you're in this pub and some guy who's an alcoholic and doesn't have Christ in his life saunters up to you at the bar as you are downing your pint and starts asking you questions about God and getting right with Him and his alcohol problems and all that. He wants to know how he can be like you, the "rev" having Christ in your life and being able to drink and all that. What do you tell him?

Ken:

I agree pastors shouldn't be solely missional. I like your definition of missional a lot! Personally I find I need rants like his because it's easy to get sucked in to being inwardly focused.

I'm encouraged by guys like Tim Keller at Redeemer in New York, who show what a solid ministry can look like that is also missional in nature.

George, I think we all agree that there is nothing wrong with a glass of beer, but we would all be quick to forsake that freedom if it was going to cause problems for an alcohoic.

Right now I can't drink alcohol of any kind, which drives me crazy on anniversary nights when I would like a nice glass of wine! It's part of the by-laws at Richview - a whole other topic.

"George, I think we all agree that there is nothing wrong with a glass of beer, but we would all be quick to forsake that freedom if it was going to cause problems for an alcohoic."

Amen to that Darryl.

The way it sounds to me with so many people its their right to drink and well, "even as Christians who are you to say I can't drink, you're all a bunch of fundamentalists, I love Christ and I drink and its all ok." Like its so necessary for people to drink. I really appreciate your thought there - limiting our freedom if its a stumbling block for others, I believe that's truly what following Christ is all about.

Great debate eh?
First of all, George, in answer to your question about the alcoholic in the bar. My first response would be an inner prayer of thanks that my presence in the bar had actually led someone to ask me about Christ. Secondly, if his question really was, "how can I be like you, a Christian and able to drink" I would say that if he is an alcoholic then the option for drinking is gone and that Christianity isn't a matter of being set free to drink but being set free from sin to live for Christ. Thirdly, I would probably say that if he is an alcoholic then he should not be in a bar and I would invite him to leave with me to Wendy's where we could talk without assaulting him with his temptation. We all have areas of weakness where we need to be very careful. Alcoholics should stay out of bars, kleptomaniacs should stay out of malls and sex addicts should stay out of video stores. They may all want the freedom to do those things but their area of temptation prevents them. But I would hope that all of them would realize that not everyone has the same problem and are free to do things that they cannot. Finally, I affirm with you and Darryl that we should do nothing in front of people that makes them stumble. The issue is not my freedom but loving God and neighbour for God's glory.

And finally finally - sorry Darryl for taking up so much space in your blog. I've been on holidays and haven't waxed long on anything for awhile.

"But I would hope that all of them would realize that not everyone has the same problem and are free to do things that they cannot."

That's where we as Christ followers need to lead by example. If I'm seeking to reach out with the Gospel to alcoholics and I'm sharing with them how much God loves them and desires for them to be set free and they then ask me if I drink, am I not in a much better position if I can say no I don't not drink. What position would give me more credibility do you think?

I ask the question because that's exactly where I am at. I am not struggling with the issue but am working my way through it. Every other week I am involved in outreach to the inner city folk at a downtown mission. There have been a number of occasions when I have been asked that question by alcoholics as I seek to witness to them about God's amazing love. I still have an occasional drink and so I tell them that. I've been convicted about that as I walk away and say to myself that I would have more credibility with an alcoholic if I didn't drink. Not that I think its wrong but I know how many people have a problem with alcohol and so to be more effective for Christ it makes more sense not to drink. So I'm working my way through that issue and even now as I write this I become more convinced that it is better not to drink. And I'll tell you I still love a good beer but I would rather be in a position to have a greater impact in the life of someone who struggles with alcohol then to drink for the enjoyment it brings to me. Is there anything that brings more glory to God and more joy to us than to know that God has used us to transform others? That's what being missional is all about isn't it? So for those reasons I believe its better not to drink. Does that make sense?

"am I not in a much better position if I can say no I don't not drink" I messed that up, that should read "if I can say I don't drink"

"And finally finally - sorry Darryl for taking up so much space in your blog."

Ken, don't ever apologize for that!

Isn't all this "Thou shalt not drink" stuff just more of those man-made rules that were mentioned?

I am sorry to say that this type of arguement just re-inforces my feeling that churchianity is not for me.

Ken and Darryl: I am with you both. I used to drink a whole bunch for the sake of being drunk and escaping my reality. Now I drink to enjoy the moment and the drink, like at Anniversaries or at a dinner or a B.B.Q.

There is nothing that quenches my thirst like a cold one on a hot day. ONE cold one, ... well, okay, maybe two, ... but I do not flaunt that freedom in the face of someone who struggles with alcoholism.

An analogy: I have Crohn's disease, and I cannot eat certain types of foods, so I don't eat 'em unless I am prepared to pay the price. My point? I don't tell anyone else that they cannot enjoy those foods, or make it a rule not to have them at the dinner they invited me to.

Wisdom dictates that those foods are not right for me but if you can enjoy them without giving into gluttony, I am happy for you!

Arthur, I invite you to come down to the mission some night and I'll introduce you to some people. And then I'll ask you if it might not make more sense to be able to say to an alcoholic that you don't drink. In case I wasn't clear my position had nothing to do with "Thou shalt not drink" because I believe the Bible doesn't say that. I just believe the wise choice in those circumstances is not to. I'm not there yet as I still have the occasional drink and as I indicated before enjoy it. But I know how many people desperately stuggle with it and it has ruined and continues to ruin their lives.

George, I have worked in missions like the one you mention. I also still deal with many people who are alcoholics.

All of them are aware of my profession of Faith.
None of them require that I stop having my occasional beer. None of them begrudge me my glass of wine with dinner.

They know that one drink, for them, is not enough but at the same time it is one too many. If anything, they seem to respect my restraint in their presence, and my non-judgemental approach to their situation.

They do not think it hypocritical for me to enjoy a drink now and then, but do think it the height of stupidity to suggest that our "rules" should apply to everyone regardless of background or circumstances.

The Bible says that it is not so much what you put into your mouth that defiles your body but what comes out of it.

Jesus did not command the woman caught in the act of adultery never to have any more relationships with men. Nor did He tell her that having sex was sinful. He merely told her to go and sin no more. Sex wasn't the sin. Having it outside of the context of marriage was.

Going to the movies isn't sinful, in and of itself. Watching "porn" is. Glorifying sex and murder is.

Dancing isn't sinful, especially dancing with one's spouse. Simulating the sex act on the dance-floor is sinful, especially with a member of the opposite gender who isn't your spouse.

Eating isn't sinful. Gluttony is.

Having a drink isn't sinful. Drinking to excess, being a "lover of strong drink," is.

Taken or enjoyed in moderation and with some common sense, (after all, one is what one feeds oneself, and that applies to the physical, mental and Spiritual realms,) there is nothing wrong with enjoying life in accordance with God's rules.

When something, anything, becomes more important to you than having a relationship with The Father, then THAT is sin. It becomes an idol.

When Christians can stop imposing these stupid man-made conditions and rules on everybody around them and just learn to walk in LOVE and acceptance of all peoples, then maybe the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth will stand a better chance. I may even be more interested in aligning myself with them. As it is, I am often ashamed to admit I am a "Christian."

I never would have guessed the beer comment would generate so many responses.

I am not surprised, but saddened that the original premise was highjacked by legalism.

I am, as you know already, totally in favour of a "missional" approach. I loved the quote.

Its interesting Arthur I agree with most of what you said but I reject you thinking the original premise was hijacked by legalism because that sure wasn't my intent. I grew up with legalism and totally know what that's all about.

I believe it goes back to being prudent especially when dealing with people who have these huge issues and we want to encourage them in coming to the Lord and surrendering to Him.

I just got back from the mission and had a great discussion tonight with a guy who has and is struggling with alcohol but praise God has been sober again for the last 10 days. You can imagine this discussion here on the blog came to me as I interacted with him.

He didn't ask me if I drank but I did think about that again and I still believe our credibility is enhanced if we were able to encourage him and if asked to say we didn't drink. And that has nothing to do with legalism as far as intent is concerned.You might perceive it to be leagalism but you would be wrong because you need to consider the intent.

George: I know you do not MEAN to be legalistic, but that is how it comes across to me. I aplologise if that offends you.

One last comment, my friend: I quote from one of your comments above: "I've been convicted about that as I walk away and SAY TO MYSELF that I would have more credibility with an alcoholic if I didn't drink." (Emphasis = mine.)

You say to YOURSELF that (you believe) you would have more credibility..... Have you ever actually asked those guys what they think? Would you REALLY have more credibility, or is it just something you believe? Personally, I believe your perception to be erroneous, but then again, maybe I am wrong. All I can go by is my own experience with the alcoholics with whom I associate, NONE of whom expect me to be teetotal. They are only too aware that what they have is a sickness/bondage issue.

Now, at the risk of sounding insensitive and uncaring, what I need now is a drink! :^)

Arthur, had a great discussion about this in our small group tonight. I was greatly encouraged about the decision to not drink being a wise choice considering the incredible negative impact alcohol generally has on our society.

I've experienced it first hand when I was a problem drinker, the negative impact it had on those around me.

So again I think all things considered its a wise choice. I want to grow in maturity in my walk with Christ. So its not a choice based on rules but on a desire to be more like Him.

Now all I got to do is totally quit.

George:

Not a bad decision. The challenge is not to impose that choice on other people, which is much tougher.

So it is about choice. Not credibility.

Oh, yeah.... Right on, Darryl!