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What you say is too true (not just in Richview). I know my sister-in-law had some tough times recently and because of her church's lack of support, left that church and is searching (actually she loves our Church in Calary, but that doesn't help her in the U.S)

The other thing I think of, is if you were aware of all the people who had issues, do you and Charlene have enough arms and legs, so to speak, to respond to all the needs? Cell groups are certainly a good vehicle (from my perspective) in making the church aware of issues ... but not everyone is a member of a cell.

More questions than answers I guess ... just thought I would throw in my 2c

What is one of the main functions of a pastor?

"The equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God...." (Ephesians 4: 12,13 NKJV)

How a pastor accomplishes that, whether through cell groups or some other avenue, depends on the culture of his/her particular congregation.

I remember that as a member of our church youth group going to visit hospitals and elderly shut-ins. Do we do that anymore?

One of the things I miss, being unchurched, is the caring community; having somebody care enough to visit and pray with us about our needs. Or heading out to visit somebody to see what we could do to see them through a rough spot in their lives.

Come to think of it, being unchurched has nothing to do with it. I missed that when I WAS part of a church.... which is one of the reasons I am no longer a member of any organized congregation.

I almost hate to say it, but the mainstream churches seem to be the worst when it comes to this type of ministry, or lack thereof.

Maybe we should learn something from the Mormons?

I agree that it's not the pastor's job to meet everybody's needs. A pastor can't do it all but has to make sure that it's somehow happening.

Small groups are great, but even they aren't enough. Not everyone will join one, and even then, it's not always enough.

This is one area where home churches (in theory) have us beat.

Forgive me, Darryl, if I appear to be a little short of patience with this next comment, BUT:

According to scripture, the poor (in spirit, as well as financially, emotionally, etc., etc.,) will always be with us. So, no matter how we go about addressing this issue, it will never be enough.

But, we can sit around and bemoan the fact that we don't have enough people, or our church culture doesn't lend itself to ministry of this kind, or that not everybody will do their part, or,....or,....or,....or those who do have the Love of God dwelling within them can get off their lazy backsides and get stuck in.

No, the Pastor cannot do it all. The Vision however, comes from the top. If all Pastors can do is sit around on their front porch and discuss the issue while the needy go to hell in a handbasket for lack of a kind word or a bit of encouragement, it is no wonder that churches are demmed by most of modern society to be passe.

Tell you what, why don't we just discuss whether our church is emergent, or post-modern, or whether Baptists are better than Pentecostals?Let's talk about whether women should be in the ministry or not, and whether they should wear make-up and/or hats and forget about ministry entirely. It's easier than having to actually LIVE the Gospel we are supposed to believe in.

Yesterday, I met with someone who was neglected by her former church. I was pretty sad hearing her story. I was also sad because I know that her story has probably also happened here.

I think it's easy to identify the problem. What is hard is that good intentions won't fix it. In a smaller setting all it takes is loving people, which is why smaller churches have bigger ones beat in this department. In a bigger church (anything over 75 I would think) it also takes a whole lot of intentionality plus loving people.

Most people won't believe unless they belong.

"I was also sad because I know that her story has probably also happened here." You think?

Listen, Bro. SIZE has nothing to do with it either.

You are already aware that I was once a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints otherwise known as The Mormons. What drew me to them and momentarily caused me to ignore the inaccuracies of their doctrines?

Their LOVE for each other. The caring attitude each member evidenced towards every other member. The helping hands extended to anyone in need. That's what. And the local congregation in the Peel area was several hundred people way back in the late 1970's.

When I read the Gospels, I don't see anywhere where Christ ASKED the disciples to go into the local communities, He SENT them. Ordered them, if you will. It is a requirement, not an alternative.

I may be unchurched these days, but I still do whatever I can to visit some of the elderly people in my community. I still go an extra mile trying to meet some of their needs and show them that somebody cares, even if all I can do is sit and listen to them. I often get behind schedule because I care enough to spend some time with some of the my more elderly customers.

I'm not looking for a pat on the back, you understand. I'm just making a point. Know what has impressed me the most recently about the Cobourg Fellowship Baptist Church? One of their members took the time to come to our house to see how we were doing and to pray with us.

To paraphrase Acts 26: 28 "He almost persuaded me to to become a member" again, but it will take a lot more than just that one visit to convince me.

Sorry, once again, for the rant. You hit a sore spot.

"You hit a sore spot."

I noticed. ;)

"This leads to one of the things that keep me up at night." -- until, oh, 10pm! :)

Arthur, it's hard to by-pass your blatant disobedience and excuse-making for not belonging to local church when you comment. I mean this in love.

Arthur:

I do understand your passion.

What I don't understand is the "so what?" factor. I think it's easy for all of us to identify the problem, and to even identify that nobody (even in churches where people are overlooked) wants the problem to happen. It's not enough to condemn or even want to do better.

I really believe that it is largely a systems problem. You can add all the well-meaning and loving people you want to a church (people like you) and it won't put a dent in the problem if the system is set up for people to attend for an hour on Sunday and leave without making any meaningful connections. People will always fall through the cracks if that is church for them.

I guess I'm trying to challenge what comes through your comments (forgive me if I'm reading into it). I think the problem is obvious but the solution may require a little more thought than it first appears.

Trish: Nobody has ever convinced me that belonging to a "local Church" is a requirement for me to consider myself a Christian, or that I am being disobedient by not attending one. And I am far from "making excuses." I am stating blatantly, right up front and out loud, that I am tired of pointless discussions about "issues" that are meaningless in the greater scheme of things when compared to hearing the Gospel and then acting on it.

Why should, as somebody far wiser than I am once said, why should anybody hear the gospel twice, when so many haven't even heard it once? Now, I am not quite that dogmatic, but I fail to see the point in people going to church week after week after week and then going home and doing nothing with it.

So, I choose NOT to belong to a local body but to do something with what I believe.... So sue me.

Darryl: My point exactly. It IS a systems issue, but I don't see why it should require much more thought to begin to address the problem. Some people are bound to fall through the cracks. Some people will continue to just attend on Sunday and sit on their fat tushes the rest of the week. But here is my belief:

The Bible says that God's Word will not return to Him void, (to paraphrase the old KJV.) If Pastors would teach on this subject a little more often and then invite participation in some form of outreach to shut-ins and/or the community at large, then when (not if, WHEN....because God's Word WILL bear fruit,) when one or two people do participate and become excited about the results, more people would join in. I don't expect 100% participation. But SOMETHING would be better than nothing.

Hey bro:

I think you may be setting up a false dichotomy. The choice isn't between attending church and acting on the Gospel.

While I wish the answer was as simple as preaching on it, Acts 6 would suggest otherwise. It might help, but it's not THE answer. They set up a system to make sure practical needs were looked after. 1 Timothy has practical instructions on how to care for widows - pretty detailed, actually, and more than an individual could do (which is why you need a collection of believers). It takes more than just preaching. This comes from someone who has preached this!

Also "something would be better than nothing" implies that those of us in churches are doing nothing. Huh? I've seen thousands of dollars handed out to help meet people's practical needs, people opening up their homes, plus countless other sacrificial acts just in the past few months at Richview. We've hired someone because "widows" were being neglected. That's just a sample.

You know I'm all for discussing different ways of being connected (more than just "going" to a church) but I don't think you can confuse this topic with the one about being connected with a church (including a house church). That's a topic for a different day...

Bro.: I accept that I may have set up a false dichotomy if I were arguing that what I am doing is the only way. I am not saying anything of the sort. I was merely poining out to Trish ... (with whom I also have no arguement. I may have sounded harsh in my reply to her, for which I apologise. I know she means well and is only speaking her heart in Love.)...I was merely pointing out that I have chosen not to belong to a local body, BUT I like to live my belief and try to help those people whom God has called me to serve.

I never meant to suggest that any church in particular is at fault, or that none (including yours) is doing anything. I know you and your heart too well to think that YOU would sit and do nothing. An over-generalization, I am guilty of.

I also accept that I would benefit from having a connection to a body of believers where there would be mutual support and concern. I just haven't found one that doesn't get all hot and bothered about some of those nonsensical issues I mentioned earlier, and it just makes me want to scream!!!!

And, by the way, if anyone still hasn't figured it out: Yes, I have been neglected and hurt and abused by more than one local church. And Yes, I know I am supposed to forgive. I have. But much like an army veteran will duck at the sound of a car backfiring, I am gun-shy, too. I refuse to go back into the alley where I was mugged.

I understand better Arthur where you're coming from. It must be hard. I didn't realize that maybe you've suffered spiritual abuse at the hands of a church or more than one church. All I can say is that it's God's blue-print design that the decisive context for your spiritual growth and forming is the church (not edifice, program or institution). So I pray you would find a group of other fallen sinner-saints saved by grace, whom you could love and serve with whom you could partner in the great mission.

Trish, I love you. I can stand in agreement with your prayer as stated above... Thank you.