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No, there isn't.

Ya, that's a tough one. Here's one we're rying to work through.
( with real life close friends)

A 22 year old, professed believer, Christian Univsersity student has recently declared his preference for men and is seeking a relationship. On a computer forum, he linked up with another local gay anglican minister...and now they're an item. Question is, do 2 gay professed believers wait til after they're married to have a sexual relationship?

How in the world do you repsond to that???

With a lot of sensitivity and truth.

I guess there are two questions. One is what you believe God says about homosexuality. This is the theological level, and it's here that the question needs to be answered. I'm not sure why McLaren dodges the issue since he doesn't seem to dodge very many of them! Maybe he has a method behind the madness, but I'm missing it.

Then you have the question of how that works with individual lives, and it's here that we need compassion and wisdom.

I've noticed that generally speaking discussion of that issue is avoided on emerging blogs. A lot of the Canadain bloggers that you are linked with don't seem to want to discuss that issue. Why is that Darryl?

Its a huge issue in the church and in our country. Why aren't there more preachers dealing with the issue with the compassion and wisdom you mention?

Would I find in your sermon archives any mention of the issue and how the church ought to deal with it or how your church in particular would deal with it?

George, I think I'm asking similar questions on why it's an uncomfortable issue for some.

You likely won't find it in my sermon archives because when we dealt with it, we brought in Pat Lawrence from New Directions to do the sermon.

Thanks Darryl, I learned something new today. I had never heard of New Directions before and I see they are linked to Exodus International.

Exodus doesn't have a Toronto office but I see that New Directions does. That's a great thing I'll have to look into it more. There's a lot of hurting people in that community and it just seems to me the Church in Toronto should be doing more to reach out to them with the Good News that can set them free. Its tragic how many young people are being drawn into the lifestyle and it just seems like the Church is just watching it happen and in many places endorsing it. Its actually very sad I think.
Thanks again.

Typically, I'll stand over here on the left(!). I've become a big supporter of gay marriage. All of the gay people I know just want to live a regular life with someone they love. A lot of the promiscuity and emptiness that many Christians like to point to as "evidence" that homosexuality is by nature "unfulfilling" will eventually go away as we let gays and lesbians take their places alongside the rest of us in our communities and churches.

As far as Exodus International goes, I can recommend a very interesting documentary called One Nation Under God that deals with so-called "reparative therapies".

Soulforce (www.soulforce.org) is another interesting organization coming from a Christian perspective. And I've always appreciated the work done by PFLAG (Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays) (www.pflag.org). Though not exclusively Christian, they have a great pamphlet (also available as a PDF) called Faith in Our Families (see http://www.pflag.org/index.php?id=297).

James:

I appreciate you stating a position. I find that less frustrating those who dodge the issue.

I agree with you that the reparative therapies are questionable. I think there are a lot of misconceptions out there among people who take the more conservative position.

I also think those of us who are more conservative need to learn the frustraion that some homosexuals feel who didn't choose to be gay. Henri Nouwen comes to mind.

I'm speaking this week, in part, about when people become primarily issues to discuss rather than people to love. So I think this is a big part of it.

The reason I am conservative is because that seems to make the most sense of Scripture. There are a lot of good books that deal with this at the biblical level as well as the practical level. I guess I would ask anyone to take a position not based on what position they like best but rather which one makes the most sense of Scripture.

Of course, not everyone who does this comes to the same conclusions, but at least it's the place to start.

Of course, that opens a whole other topic on the role of Scripture, but that's where I'm coming from.

"I think there are a lot of misconceptions out there among people who take the more conservative position."

Can you give some of those Darryl?

I'll give you a couple.

One is that you can stop being gay and become heterosexual. This may happen with some, but it seems that for many the same-sex temptation never goes away. This shouldn't surprise us since most other temptations don't go away, and temptation itself isn't wrong.

Another is that homosexuality is a choice. There is some evidence that it might be a predisposition, just as we are predisposed to many other behaviors that could be considered sinful.

Those are just a couple.

I think I would be insulted and feel objectified if people simply saw me as a hetrosexual. It is a sexual behavior it isn't who I am.

I can't imagine that I would ever define myself that way, unless somehow through the course of my life something had died inside me and the behavior had assumed the empty space.

I agree with that Darryl, but what can God do in the life of a person that is a homosexual?

"It is a sexual behavior it isn't who I am."

I think this oversimplifies. Sexuality is a very complicated and powerful thing. One of my closest friends is gay. He grew up as the son of an evangelical minister and gave his life to Christ at a very young age. When he was coming out, he felt very little understanding from the church and has eventually abandoned his faith. In my discussion with him, I said: Both these things are a part of you. Being a follower of Christ and being gay. But he rightly said that following Christ had been a choice and that being gay was not. In that sense, isn't "being a Christian" just "religious behaviour" and not who I am?

Just stirring the pot, that's all...

How would you answer the question?

I would try to answer with the two qualities that McLaren usually displays: graciousness and thought-provoking questions that raise the right issues, looking at the Biblical data and suggesting questions that need to be answered as we look at the text.

An example of McLaren doing this is with his most recent book. The Last Word.

McLaren does such an excellent job on this with a lot of topics. It's baffling to me why he doesn't do it with this one.

Well stirred, James. I will at least concede that sexual expression is part of our identity. The mistake that is made by both those within and outside the homosexual community is in assuming and affirming that sexual predisposition is the whole person, in of itself, personhood.

I know this to be false dogma.

James, I cannot speak personally to being a homosexual, I'm not gay. I can speak to being intensely hetrosexual however. I understand well powerful and sometimes overwhelming sexual desires.

Still, those desires alone are not me. They only speak to what is biological about me, they only become me if I choose to make there expression the primary purpose of my being.

Who we are, is who we choose to be. Irrespective of our predispositions, our cultural and environmental influences, even our own desires, we have been graced by God with the overriding gift of free will.

No one said our choices would be easy, no one promised that the temptations wouldn't be great. Sometimes the cross is heavy to bear, sometimes we fall. But by continuing to freely choose Christ, he extends his hand and I am raised again.

I must add here, with the greatest respect I can muster, if I am not free to choose, then I do not think it is fair that God judge.

James, if I choose a sexual identity to be my personhood, to be me, or at least my predominant characteristic, how do I reconcile that with the rest of my being, with the rest of lifes potentials. How is friendship, respect, love and community with women possible for me if sex with them is my priority. How am I able to give myself fully and completely to children, as parent, as mentor, as friend if my carnal interests are my first priority. How do I love as God has called me to love, as I above all else desire to love, if a sexual relationship is my defining interest.

If a sexual orientation is personhood James it is, for me, a shallow and tragic identity indeed. It is a choice, however compelling, I fight against making.

Not all choices are the same James. Some are good, some are bad. Some are reconcilable and enhance the diverse opportunities of being, while others are exclusive and deny and distort the fullness life has to offer.

Christianity, is for me, the best of all choices. In Christ I am free to express all that is good and as best as I am able, share it with everyone I encounter. I still make dumb choices, I am still plagued with temptations and distractions but with Christ there is hope for me that one day I might transcend the more narrow and less fulfilling person of impulse and desire that I tend to be and one day be fully realized. I believe, in Christ, that me, that you, that everyone, is a person of greater potentials than we could have every imagined being.

His peace be with you always.