To a lot of people, Christians are all about moral issues such as homosexuality. You hear words phrases like "Take a stand" and "the cultural battle." The assumption is that Christians are responsible to influence the country to live according to our moral values.
Most of the time, this assumption is wrong. We are called to be salt and light, and I believe we are called to social action primarily around issues of justice. We aren't called, however, to ensure that everyone behaves as if they were Christians.
It drives me crazy when Christians try to get others to pray in school or parliament, and when they talk about making this a Christian country. That's the talk of theocracy, and it all started with Constantine and his commitment to Christendom. This is extremely dangerous, as it gives the illusion of Christianity without any of its substance. It sometimes makes people into hypocrites. The Apostle Paul himself said that he didn't expect those who aren't Christians to act as if they are Christians.
Where does that leave us?
First, there's still lots of room for political engagement. I think you can make an extremely strong case for standing up for the rights of the oppressed, and calling for justice for the poor. Christians in the past have done just this: founded hospitals, fought slavery, opposed racism. We have a spotty record, to be sure, but this is precisely where we should be involved in the political process. I wish you heard as many Christians today speaking out in support of the widow and the orphan as you do about some of the hot button issues.
Second, there's lots of room for this discussion within the church. Some of you will disagree with me, but I'm concerned about the decision the Anglican church has taken this week. I feel for some of my Anglican friends who are caught right in the middle of this. I applaud their efforts to influence the church toward what they feel is right. That doesn't mean anything goes, but we do need strong thinkers and communicators who can do justice to this issue within the church.
Third, I think we need to remember that our mission isn't to make people moral. It goes much deeper than that. Our job is to figure out how we can live in such a way that people are introduced to the One who's changed us.
Your thoughts?
I think I agree with most of what you say here Darryl, its about balance. Its about honouring God in all we do. Its about reaching out to the lost and showing them Christ and the freedom that a relationship in Him brings.
The hot button issue of homosexuality is so much in the news and has such an influence already in the church. Its tragic, because people aren't being shown Christ in a true sense if they condone homosexuality. So a homosexual person in a church ends up with a false gospel and belief that they are saved and can continue in the lifestyle.
I agree with you all those other areas are hugely important and we need to address those as Christians But we shouldn't waffle and fence sit when it comes to issues of sin, no matter what it is. That's where I think the church generally speaking is lukewarm. Don't want to offend so the issue of sin is so often ignored. Real truth is then passed over because of course it is only in surrender and repentance of sin that true freedom in Christ can come about.
I have experienced that so incredibly in my own life. God's Word is so clear on that. I love Paul's letters and how he addresses that especially in the book of Romans. I'm reading that book over and over again it is so rich. Ok I gotta go, its a beautiful Saturday and I'm spending too much time doing this. But I have to say I love it. God is so great and so available when we turn to Him and seek His guidance. He brings about such clarity. Our motives must be good and surrender is the key. We need to encourage people struggling with sin, whatever it might be, to seek God. To ask God to reveal His will to them and to convict them of their sin. To get into God's Word and meet Him there. He is so willing to embrace us if only we respond to him in submission and obedience.
Have a great week-end.
"So a homosexual person in a church ends up with a false gospel and belief that they are saved and can continue in the lifestyle."
George - Not attacking you, though I'm tired, so this may come out wrong. I do disagree with the sentiment in that statement that a homosexual cannot be saved.
I'm sure we all hear, hold on to, and share with others an inaccurate and incomplete gospel. We don't all get it right. The fact that christians disagree over so many things shows we don't all interpret scripture the same way.
I feel for the person who is taught his sin is okay and is not taught to listen to God and obey. It does not matter what the sin is, to allow a brother or sister to remain in bondage is a disservice. But it is not an issue of salvation.
Salvation is a question of belief in Christ, not belief in a human theology. If you give your life to Christ, you are known by him. That is all it takes.
To suggest that obedience and submission are requirements for salvation is to suggest a works-based salvation where our entrance to heaven is based on our passing judgement on our own, without Christ. If that is really the test, I am sad for every one of us, as neither you nor I could possibly pass that test.
I agree the Canada isn't and never was a Christian country. Also government can't save a single soul, so better to put your eggs in the basket of the churches mission. But also us Canadians shouldn't wait to always reason and convince nonchristian people (who are blind) about their sin if a decisive opportunity comes up to advance right morals or right legislation? I like what the Anglican church is doing. Even a pagan society who does right is honoured by God so pushing for what's right ultimately serves society.
Trish: "I like what the Anglican church is doing." Just to be clear, you like that they've affirmed the sanctity of same-sex relationships?
As for the rest of your comment: I'm not saying that it's wrong to convince others to be moral. But that's different than legislating the Christian view of morality. I know lots of very moral people who aren't Christians, but I don't think we're called to make more of them. If we see that as our calling, we're just a Christian version of Miss Manners.
Yeah Darrel you're right. Sorry. I read the article wrong. I'm against same-sex marriages too.
Re. influencing morality (convincing vs. legislating), I'm assuming that legislating Christian morality is out of the question as a practical possibility here in Canada at the moment. I'm also not assuming that it's our job to campagne for Christian morality, but through the power of voting and different ways of petitioning we shouldn't be backward in declaring our positions which are unashamedly based on a Christian worldview. In this way we make our voice known and possibly advance legislation that is righteous.
Kevin, I certainly did not want to imply that a homosexual cannot be saved. Of course he can.
What I was trying to say is that a church that would say to a homosexual that its ok to stay in that lifestyle, its not sin, would be giving that person a false gospel and false hope.
It would be like me saying I am going to keep committing adultery, I've given my life to Christ and I'm on my way to heaven. God is the ultimate judge of course but there's something obviously wrong there. They don't go together.
As we surrender to Christ, he will forgive us of our sins and as new creatures in Him our lives will change. He will convict us of our sin and indwell us with His Spirit and the process of change begins.
You're right its not about rules but it is about surrender. We cannot live in patterns of known sin and expect God to guide us by His Spirit. It doesn't work that way does it?
Thanks for clarifying, George. Unfortunately, there are too many churches in my area saying precisely that homosexuals cannot be saved and that anyone who suggest otherwise will be joining them in hell. :(
I agree that christians need to read the bible (I think this may be one source of some of the trouble. Too many "leaders" who never crack open the book.) and hold each other accountable to right living. That's different from holding people outside the church accountable, though.
We discussed this in a church staff meeting earlier this week. I explained that if given an option to vote, I will vote to keep marriage between man and woman. That's my preference and is therefore the way I should vote. But, I am not going to expend much energy "fighting" this issue on the political/societal front. Where I am standing up and speaking out is inside the church. I believe I do have a responsibility, as a pastor and simply as a member of the body, to persevere for what is right within the body.
However, I do believe unity is a higher calling than agreement on moral issues.
Darryl, great entry. I am a little troubled about the comments that I read here. Wouldn't it be nice if Jesus came before the next election? This world aches from labour pains. Come soon Lord Jesus.
"However, I do believe unity is a higher calling than agreement on moral issues."
Kevin: May I ask for clarification? Upon what is the call for unity among Christians based?
Another lie we've believed in - I know, hot potato, but maybe better than some of the others were tackling - although maybe we're not ready to tackle this one...what do you think?
So you think it's wrong for Christians to stand up against the re-definition of marriage that is going on right now?
Jacob, that'a a very good question. I'm still trying to work through that.
On one hand, why not speak out? On the other hand, we shouldn't be surprised when the world has different views than the church.
The gay marriage issue is especially tough because marriage has traditionally been seen as both a civil and a religious institution.
These are questions that needs exploring: what role do we play in a pluralistic society? Out of all our moral beliefs, which ones are so important that they deserve to be legislated so that even non-Christians follow them?
For some reason I just lost a lengthy response because I forgot to enter my name and Email and I don't feel like typing it all again.
Just one comment. I heard Norman Giesler on BAM recently and he presented the argument that the Law is a teacher. When laws are made, over time people tend to accept it as true. Therefore, one way Christians can influence the world is to influence the laws of the land. Not sure I agree 100% but an interesting thought nonetheless.
I agree we should not be surprised - the Bible calls us strangers in a foreign land.
First post here, so hello all. Without wanting to stir up a hornet's nest, I would have to say that I don't think many of the people commenting here really understand what homosexuality is. I'm not claiming special knowledge, but one of my best friends is gay, and this whole discussion of a "lifestyle" of being gay is just ludicrous. Being gay is who he is, not something he does. He cannot stop "acting" gay. I think science is beginning to confirm this, and I believe the church will look even sillier than it does now in ten or twenty years, and be even more irrelevant.
The entire "homosexual issue" is just the evangelical church's "issue du jour" as abortion was about 10-15 years ago. In this case, as well as in that one, there was little real effort to understand what was going on. The world's impression of evangelical Christianity is one of simplistic, knee-jerk responses to complicated issues, and I think we insult people's intelligence. That being said, there is plenty of room for thinking about the moral implications of our behaviour in lots of different areas.
By the way, I am a Christian and I see many more "moral" issues that are important in our world. How about what's going on in Iraq right now in the name of "freedom" and "democracy" and implicitly in the name of Christianity? Our retreat into a personal morality crusade means that some huge inequalities in our society go unnoticed.
We continue to strain at gnats and swallow camels.
So James, do you believe that the Bible doesn't teach that homosexuality (or abortion) is sin?
James! It's good to hear from you.
To add to Jacob's question: do you think a biological disposition toward something makes it moral or immoral? I agree that "Being gay is who he is, not something he does," but that doesn't answer whether homosexual behavior (not predisposition) is sinful or not.
You are right in your last paragraph. The current focus on homosexuality is understandable, but a bit baffling, given the host of moral issues we don't notice. You mentioned Iraq. Let me add another one. I'm often puzzled that those who long ago accepted, or at least tolerated, the notions of common law marriage and easy divorce only now see the institution of marriage crumbling. I understand the concern, but I wonder why they (and I, to be honest) are so selective.
Truth be told, I don't see the modern concepts of "homosexuality" or "abortion" in the Bible at all. I think what I do see is the biblical call to compassion and justice. I hate the evangelical habit of coming up with a laundry list of sins, which usually ignore many factors contributing to them.
I think the reason I'm leaning toward favouring gay marriage is that it's finally allowing gay people to join our society and come in from the fringes where, frankly, most do not want to be. I remember a discussion I had with my friend back when he first came out and I was telling him not to have sex. I made a flippant comment like, "Look at me! I'm waiting until I'm married!" and then he reminded me that that had no application to him. I wonder if the so-called "promiscuity" of the gay community would change if gay people had the same opportunities to enter into lifelong partnerships as the rest of us do.
So, the short answer is that I think promiscuity by straight or gay people is sinful, but that fidelity and self-sacrificing love are righteous, whether practiced by straight or gay people.
James,
What do you think the Bible actually does say about Homosexuality? It seems like it is presented as unnatural and outside the boundaries of the covenant. Agree/Disagree? Would that not make it a sin?
With that as my footing would that not make a homosexual person responsible, accountable for their act as well as with the ability to stop practising?
James, I don't see the modern concepts of "salvation" in the bible at all. Does that mean Jesus is no longer the only way? Or that salvation is irrelevant for today?
It's actually the fundemental christians which come up with such laundry lists because they are very legalistic. The evangelicals on the other hand push their liberties to the extreme. Neither one is very good, but the hard thing to do is to think and find the right balance.
Once again I stress the importance of christians to be holy as He is holy. This is a lesson that I have recently been exposed to and it is very sobering. What we need today is a little more Jesus and a lot less of us.
check this one out.
www.family.org/fofmag/pp/a0024031.cfm
interesting info about homosexuality.
Peter,
That Focus on the Family stuff is fairly repugnant, in my opinion. While we're trading links, check out:
http://www.pflag.org/based_bias.htm
I'm not really interested in getting into a big argument about this. As you said, what we need is a little more Jesus and a little less us. But, I recommend you get to know someone who is gay or lesbian and ask them about their sexuality. In fact, Christians in general should probably stop being so afraid of talking about sexuality and gender. We're only just beginning to understand how complicated the subject is. Not to mention that Christianity and culture are not the same things at all. There are plenty of other things in our culture that we accept that the folks in ancient Judea wouldn't: childless couples, for instance.
James, I have gay and lesbian friends, and I certainly understand how our glibness and pat answers can be odious. I really don't understand many of the attitudes that get expressed around this issue, and I agree that Christians need to get a lot smarter about gender and sexuality discussions. So I'm with you to a certain extent.
It seems to me, though, that we have to wrestle with biblical teaching on this topic - not just proof texts, but to wrestle really deeply with the overall teaching. Bill Webb's book "Women, Slaves, and Homosexuals" does a good job, and the N.T. Wright interview I linked to (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/123/23.0.html) touches on some of the issues. One of them is 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.
So I agree that we don't need to major on this issue, and with much of what you say, but I disagree with you when you say that homosexuality isn't covered in the Bible. The question for me is how we wrestle with the Biblical teaching while keeping this issue in perspective, and while loving gays and lesbians as God does.
One quick comment
Pauls word for Homosexual is arsenokoite which is literal translated man - bed (having the connotation of sexual behavior) makes it hard to see a difference between New Covenant Ideas and now Ideas. But i will agree and that this section puts no more emphasis on the activity than other innappropriate one.
Darryl, do you agree that in love we need to speak the truth on this issue? Do you agree God's Word is clear on this issue as it is with other forms of sexual immorality, that it is sin and that to continue in this known sin is to be disobedient to God?
George, why do I feel like we're going back to the very start of the conversation? I think I've already answered all of these same questions.
Let me summarize what I've said:
1) I think the Bible teaches homosexual behavior is a sin
2) I don't understand Christians who major on this issue more than other sins
3) Gay and lesbian people can get in line with the rest of us as fellow human beings in need of God's love and grace
I don't understand Christians who major on being critical of the church. :)
Jacob, I know you're half kidding, and I kind of agree. But a couple of thoughts:
It's one thing to have these conversations within the church. I think we need to. But some would suggest we need to ensure that culture adopts our beliefs, which is something different.
However, I agree that it is unhealthy to be overly critical of the church all the time (although I might add that Jesus was in Revelation 2 and 3, Paul was in Galatians and one of his letters to the Corinthians, etc.) Darren had a good post on this topic today:
http://www.livingroom.org.au/blog/archives/bash_the_bride_face_the_bridegroom.php
Interesting related rant here:
http://revm2.blogspot.com/2004_06_01_revm2_archive.html#108632544460668167