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I would say its all about attitude Darryl. I would say that list is a great list with the right attitude. In the relationship. In the relationship I have with Christ I like that list. Does that make me a Pharisee? If you look at the list from a legalistic standpoint then yes it can become like a Pharisee.

But if you look at the list as a means to know Him, to pursue Him, to draw closer to Him to become more like Him, I would say its a great list.

What would your list look like?

..isn't stealing a bad thing ;-)

In the hierarchy of sins that Darryl mentioned in another post, it is considered plagiarism, not stealing....so it is okay. ;^)

Take a pill, I'm kidding!!!

On a more serious note, and I do not mean any offense, George:
It is a funny thing, attitude is. There isn't anything wrong with MY attitude. Everybody else's sucks, though.

I was given permission to steal the list. Having said that, (George) the point isn't whether it's a good list or a bad list (you're right about what you say - it's about heart). However, the point is that it's not a good tool for measuring spirituality, and yet it's been the primary tool that has been used in churches for a long time. Ie. Most discipleship materials are based on - you do these things and you will grow spiritually - however, that's not a true statement. So, It begs two thoughts; first, maybe we should stop using this as the measurement of spirituality in our midst or these actions as the means to spiritual maturity. Second, it begs the question, how can we measure spiritual maturity, if these things don't measure it? Clue...Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. This will be the essence of my next post. Darryl, you're a thief, just wait till I preach again...

Ed, my rather satyrical comment aside, I could not agree with you more. If I may add, as a South African by birth, Canadian by choice: There are few Peoples more "spiritual" than some of the heathen tribes in various parts of the World. The question is....which spirit(s) are they serving?

The same list, with some minor adjustments, could be a barometer of any number of other religious beliefs. Islam, Mormonism, Voodooism, Hinduism.....

Yup, I agree with that Ed, but how can we take on those fruits of the Spirit though without that list?

How can I know about Christ without the Word for example? How can the Spirit of God bring me to a place where I become more like Christ without me getting into the Word and asking God to reveal all that to me?

How can I know Christ without the Word? Interesting, you speak as if the Word of God has always been available to each person. Does that mean there was no spirituality before Guttenberg?

How can we know the fruit without the other disciplines? - you're stealing my next post - but I don't think it's either/or, it's both/and - my point is, don't use those tools as measurements of people's spirituality. If you want to know whether someone is growing, it's a messy thing, but Jesus said you'd know it by their fruit, and then Paul told us (not an exhaustive list by the way)they must be growing in love, joy, peace, patience, etc.

Let me bring it home, what of the fruit is missing in your life? Grace? Gentleness? Then effort in this area will do more for your spirituality than any discipline you practice or theological tennants you ahere to. You can know all the truth, but if you have no grace you are a resounding gong. I'm not trying to be judgemental - but I'm tired of hearing people talk in generalities about this stuff. And maybe this is not the best forum, BUT if we truly want to grow spiritually, we need people who were accountable to (mentors/friends?) who know us that deeply and can say, you know what, you're not very loving that's destroying any real impact you can have, thus your spiritualmeter is at "0". You want it to rise? Only one way - ask God for strength and then LOVE!

Remember Jesus words? Is there no one left to judge you, then neither do I (that's his part-forgiveness) and then he says, GO and sin no more. Do what it takes to grow in light of what he's already done. Not to mystical a process, but it is messy and rather than it being a straight line uphill, it's usually a squigly line up and down and backward and forwards and all around. But the point is, are you going?

That is a list of doing isn't it?
It is a list of appearance.

As in...man looks on the outward appearance but God looks at the heart.

I'll leave you theologicans to debate.
Have we lost the capacity to be?

LoL.
Ian's Messy Desk sourced the list.
Very cool.
You gotta love blogging.
I plagerized it from you Darryl, and posted it at connexions.
I see Jordon 'stole' it too.:^)

Isn't the list a baseline thing like...
...you can meet all the above AND YET
MISS IT...eg the Pharisees as Darryl put it.
BUT
I don't think you can be a very good
mature disciple if you did not
meet the list.

This list falls SHORT of describing the
essence...
but it is not INACCURATELY describing the
essence. It is correct but inadequate.

Hence...its practically impossible
to judge someone's
salvation status...ie going to hell or heaven.
But from an administrative point of view..
ie for pastors or whatever, a list that falls
short is better than not having one at all...
because of the argument above,especially the
latter part :
just because you meet the list does not mean..
BUT
you CANNOT be a mature disciple if you did not
really meet the list...
All it all, it inspires humility...because
you may meet all the requirements of the list
but you may...because of some blindness...
be missing it big time. I would have thot
that this realisation would be very humbling.

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. (1 John 5:1-5)

We love the God, and because we love God we obey him. All Christians have overcome the world, have overcome sin. We are no longer slaves to sin, but to righteousness and obedience (Romans 6:15-18).

To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7)

To be a Christian means to be living a life of obedience. We are to overcome this world, and if we do not overcome this world we will not enter God's kingdom (Rev. 21:7).

Mike:

I'm sure you selected those verses for a reason. I'd sure like to hear what you're thinking.

I am sorry I made it unclear by putting verses after each paragraph. Only 1 John 5:1-5, Rev. 2:7 were direct quotes.

However, my point was simply that although we should do all those things on the list, that the only way to be a Christian and enter heaven it to live a life of obedience and by doing this we "overcome the world." The only way to be a mature disciple is to be living in obedience to what God commands.

I am sorry I made it unclear by putting verses after each paragraph. Only 1 John 5:1-5, Rev. 2:7 were direct quotes.

However, my point was simply that although we should do all those things on the list, that the only way to be a Christian and enter heaven it to live a life of obedience and by doing this we "overcome the world." The only way to be a mature disciple is to be living in obedience to what God commands.