The Globe and Mail on Theology Pubs
Tuesday, October 13, 2009 at 6:42AM Last week I got a call from a reporter from The Globe and Mail on theology pubs. The article she was writing is now online:
Beer isn't the only thing on tap at the local pub. It may be an unorthodox place for a theology group, but pastors who've tried it say a little libation goes a long way in having honest-to-God discussions on faith...
A growing number of Christian groups from a variety of denominations are taking God to the bars, launching religious-themed pub nights dubbed "martini masses" or "theology on tap" in an effort to broaden their reach.
The trend, believed to have started in Britain, where pubs are an integral part of social life, has spread throughout the United States.
Over the past year, new theology pub groups have also cropped up across Canada, in Ottawa, Toronto and Vancouver.
By the way, if you're in Toronto, our next pub night is next Monday. You can get more details at theologypub.ca.
Update: The article says, "If Jesus were alive today, Mr. Dash adds, a pub is 'probably one of the places he would go.'" Of course this should probably say something like, "If Jesus were here today..."
Reader Comments (25)
Hey Darryl, did you get a chance to listen to one of those sermons by Louie Giglio that I posted on an old post of yours? The ones about college kids and drinking.I see in the Globe piece it says, "But he (Darryl Dash) noted that more churches are now tolerant of moderate consumption."Can you define moderate consumption?It also has you saying, "If Jesus were alive today, Mr. Dash adds, a pub is “probably one of the places he would go.”I take it that is a misquote no? Because of course Jesus is alive and I'm wondering, if He would go to a pub, what do you suppose would be His purpose? Would He hang out with you guys, have a couple of pints and discuss Calvin do you think?What is the purpose of your Theology Pub? When you guys drink in moderation how do you decide what that is? How do you know if or when you cross the line from moderation to excess? What is it that you wish to communicate to the world around you by having these theology pubs?
Just saw your update, sorry.
Hi George,The Theology Pub began out of a longing to have the type of discussion Lewis, Tolkien, and others had at The Eagle and Child in Oxford. At least we can say they inspired us, because we realize we will never be what they were.Getting together and discussing theology is really the point. We also eat and drink, and nobody has to have alcohol. We usually end the night praying for the city. I don't know that I want to communicate anything to the world as much as I want to eat and drink with my brothers and sisters and spur each other on in our service and devotion.I'll try to download that message again. The last time I tried it gave me an error. I'll try right now.
You noted in the article that more churches are now tolerant of moderate consumption. I wonder if you could define moderate consumption.So at your theology pub, nobody has to have alcohol. But do they? Do you?
Yes, I think most have a beer, including me. By moderate drinking I mean drinking that avoids drunkenness.
Help me to understand this Darryl. You guys have a longing to have these theological discussions. I think that's great, one day I too would love to sit down with a guy like your friend Bill and ask him how it is that he thinks he had something to do with his salvation, get into a little Calvin/Arminian discuission.What I don't understand is the need for the alcohol consumption. Can you explain that to me? Why does the drinking need to be a part of that?I really hope you are able to listen to the Giglio messages and wonder what your reaction would be to it. They are both great messages and it's the second one where he asks the pointed questions about why this need to drink and how does it compromise our witness to the world. Here is the link to that http://www.discipleshiplibrary.com/search.php?a=1&e=1&m=0&p=0&n=0&s=message_title&t=NAME&ss=Giglio&st=speaker_exact&ssf=Louie and the message is titled, "Choosing to drink - part 2"It would be great to get Ken's views on that also, I remember from a previous discussion his passion on defending his right to drink. (By the way, just to be clear, I don't think its a sin to have a drink, but here's another question, how do you know when your moderate drinking is no longer moderate. Your very first pint begins your impairment process, I'll send you some links about that if you like)I wonder what's on the heart and mind of God when it comes to the issue of drinking in our day and in our society for a man of God. Look around Darryl, look at the incredible misery alcohol abuse has wrought in families and in our society. I'll bet you don't have to look far, maybe in your own family or extended family or among the people in your own church. The question is, what should be our response to all of that? What about all things being lawful but not profitable. What about not having our freedom be a stumbling block to our brothers who struggle with the sin of drunkeness? What about all of that?As I read God's Word and consider what He has done in my own life, it just becomes more and more clear. We need to be salt and light, we need to be set apart, we need to be in the world but not of the world, we need to penetrate our society with the fantastic message of the Gospel, that all people everywhere can have this new hope that we claim to have in Jesus Christ. Where is the Church making a big difference in the lives of addicts and alcoholics Darryl? Where are scores of them coming to Christ in Canada? Is it possible that God would move mightily among those addicted as His people reach out to them? I believe with all my heart He will and desires to. But what will it take from the people of God? Worldliness and accommadation and compromise? I don't think so. I think it starts with the people of God getting sold out for God and calling out to Him. I love 2 Chronicles 7:14 " if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land."I challenge you to think about that Darryl. What would God do in our country if the people of God got serious about that. We always talk of revival and revival always starts with the people of God.Tell me again about this need to drink? Is it the taste? Do we say to the world, hey we Christians only drink in moderation, we are cool like you all, but the difference is you guys drink to get drunk, but we only drink because we like the taste and only ever in moderation.Pardon my sarcasm but help me to understand this need to drink. I'll check in with you later today.
George:I apologize. I'm going to have very limited time to engage on this issue in the next few days. I'll try the MP3 you mentioned again.I believe that a Christian can come to the conviction that he or she should not consume alcohol, and that this is perfectly legitimate. I also believe that we need to be ready to forfeit our rights for those who would stumble into drunkenness because of our example.But I don't believe it's possible to impose one's conscience on others in this matter. As Don Carson said:"If I’m called to preach the gospel among a lot of people who are cultural teetotalers, I’ll give up alcohol for the sake of the gospel. But if they start saying, 'You cannot be a Christian and drink alcohol,' I’ll reply, 'Pass the port' or 'I’ll think I’ll have a glass of Beaujolais with my meal.'"
"I also believe that we need to be ready to forfeit our rights for those who would stumble into drunkenness because of our example."I would suggest to you that happens a whole lot more than you realize, and if it does then the question again is why do you drink? When you do have more time I would be interested in your answers about why drink at all? The only reasonable answer is because you like the taste and when you think about it that really is a dumb reason to drink and addictive substance like alcohol, there are many other beverages just as tasty.I'd say that if you really think about it, it really is about that bit of a buzz one gets when having a drink, that relaxing feeling that causes one to open up a bit more, get into those lively discussions and all that. Hey, I've been there and for many years. If you rationalize it by saying it's about the taste I would say that is foolishness when you consider the damage that alcohol in so many cases does.
"I would suggest to you that happens a whole lot more than you realize." I'm not sure. I've never encountered one yet. Note that the weaker brother according to Paul is not someone who disapproves of drinking or who would stumble if he or she drank, but one who stumbles into sin as a result of others exercising their freedoms. I'm sure such a person exists when it comes to drinking, but I haven't encountered this.However, you do bring up the strongest argument for temperance: it can be abused, and some who drink may be prone to alcoholism. This is one of the strongest arguments I've come across. Note that it's not a Scriptural argument, because I think it's hard to make a biblical case against all drinking.In any case, any of God's good gifts can be abused, but that doesn't mean that we should stop enjoying God's gifts, such as sex and food.Thanks, George. I appreciate the discussion, but I need to get on with other things. :)
Ok Darryl. but maybe when you do have time you could answer the question of why you do drink. :)
To enjoy one of God's good gifts.
Hi Darryl,I hope to be able to attend your fellowship on Monday night. I am moving for most of the day and really won't know until the late afternoon if I will be coming.If I make it there, please seat me in the temperence section next to George. :)
Hi George, Thanks for thinking my views would be good to hear. I have been out of touch with cyber space most of this week and couldn't join in. I wasn't ignoring the bait you put out. You were right in your assessment of where I am on this issue. But I'm not getting into this debate this time. Too busy, too tired, too old too grumpy.
I don't see what the big deal is. A Christian can be a non-vegetarian and not be a glutton. A Christian can go to a Roman Catholic funeral and not be a Roman Catholic. A person can drink in moderation and not be a drunk.
George, I'd like to give my own answers to your questions: 1. "What I don’t understand is the need for the alcohol consumption. " It is not a case of there being a 'need'. The justification for meeting in a pub and drinking however is threefold: i. it's a gift from God to be enjoyed; ii. it helps change the perception many non-Christians have of Christians (from being judgemental, legalists to being real people like them, who, yet, are different) and opens doors to conversation that would otherwise be closed iii. it provides opportunities, opens doors and enables people to hear the gospel who would never set foot in a church2. "I wonder what’s on the heart and mind of God when it comes to the issue of drinking in our day" I wonder what was on the heart and mind of God when he ordained that man would learn how to make alcoholic drinks? Did He do that so that He could then catch man doing it and condemn him? I wonder what was what was on the heart and mind of God when He told Aaron he was giving him the best of the wine offerings (Num 18:12) or when Nehemiah said "Eat the fat and drink sweet wine and send portions to anyone who has nothing ready, for this day is holy to our Lord. " (Neh 8:10)?3. "Look at the incredible misery alcohol abuse has wrought in families and in our society" Is this an argument for not drinking? Look at the incredible misery caused by the sex industry. Is this an argument for Christian married couples not having sex? Sin is often taking some good, God-given gift and making it an ultimate thing and/or taking it outside of God's intended purpose.4. "What about not having our freedom be a stumbling block to our brothers who struggle with the sin of drunkeness? " This seems to presuppose that any and all drinking creates a stumbling block. What if you don't know any brothers who struggle with the sin of drunkeness? Or, if you do, what if you don't include them in the pub meetings or you sit down and talk it through with them and check that you would not be causing a stumbling block and agree it best that they don't attend?5. "Where is the Church making a big difference in the lives of addicts and alcoholics Darryl? Where are scores of them coming to Christ?" Where is the church making a big difference in any group who need to hear the gospel??? Why single drinking out as the reason they're not?6. "We need to be salt and light ... what will it take from the people of God? Worldliness and accommadation and compromise? I don’t think so." It seems to me you exaggerate the dangers of drinking whilst ignoring more important sins rampant in the church. How one defines moderation is not prescribed in scripture thus it it is a matter of conscience. What is clear is that drinking is not forbidden. On the other hand, pride, gossip, anxiety, joylessness, lack of faith, etc are all sin and are far more prevalent and doing far more harm to the witness of the church.I agree that the Lord needs a people 'sold out' for Him but the way to do this is not to set rules. Christians don't need more 'law'. They need more gospel. All sin is a failure to live in line with the truth of gospel caused by unbelief in the Gospel. Proclaim Christ and Him crucified. Show people how they forget the gospel in their lives and start to relate to God on the basis of their performance. Pray that God would bring them to see that they are far more sinful than they know and then lead them to see that they are far more loved than they realise. Teach them that they already forgiven, already declared not guilty, already accepted, and that they have everything they need. Teach and model before them in all humility and passion that the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus is Lord is better than all the pleasures, acclaim, love or wealth of the world. Teach them with every ounce of clarity that you can muster that following Christ is not about obeying God in order to be accepted but that we obey in response to Christ having already accepted us because the default mode of the human heart is self-righteousness (http://allsufficientchrist.blogspot.com/2009/07/are-you-in-default-mode.html). Meditate often on the gospel. Learn to preach it to yourself as the antidote to all your sin. Do these things and you'll find a desire to go out and preach the gospel amongst the poor and needy growing and the need to nitpick over exactly what Christians should and shouldn't do diminish. We are called to be Christ-like. I suggest that there are a whole bunch of far important, deeper things we need to deal with in our lives before we get to the question of alcohol. Too much of the church focuses on external sins, and largely on other people's external sins. But God wants to work on the desires of our hearts. I recommend you read Respectable Sins by Jerry Bridges.Incidentally, we run a program for addicts of all kinds and we also meet in a pub where people get to hear the gospel who would never come to a church and, no, we don't encourage those struggling with addictions to go to the pub for obvious reasons. Martin
Everyone here is either a brother or sister in Christ...I like a beer or two now and again. I enjoy a good red wine, but never something so hideous as a beaujolais :), with a meal. I am also a recovering addict and I stumble from time to time.I'm looking for love from the Lord our God. I'm trying to give Him love in return. I'm trying to be loving to everyone. I struggle with that though, not because I struggle with sentiment, I don't. Rather I struggle to understand what a right expression of sentiment, what a right expression of love looks like, in all the varied circumstances of my life.I hope for everyone's love in return. I get kind of pissy when I think I'm getting the dirty end of the stick.I believe the stumbling block to progress is my pride. Put another way, I don't yet live as humbly as I think I ought. I keep responding to too many circumstances in my life without God's counsel, without God's approval.Even when I do seek them, I'm not always sure what God's counsel and approval are. Most times I think I'm guessing. I get mad at God. And then I am calmed by an understanding that urges me to deepen my prayer life and intensify my worship. Seek and you shall find. No one said the seeking would be easy or its rewards experienced immediately.While I may struggle in the moment, with not "finding", I like the fact that finding takes time. I sense integrity and truth in that experience. Important things, the love things, seem to mean more and endure longer, when secured through time and struggle.It is true for me that those relationships in which I share the most love, have all taken time, have all known challenge and suffering...So what does this have to do with "Christian fraternity" experienced in a pub. Well, I'm not exactly sure...lol.I do know that the reader is given an opportunity for a deeper understanding, if as well as given a point of view, they are offered a sense of character, a sense of context, a sense of why someone thinks the way they think.I also know that when writing with regard to a specific, I am able to better represent what I believe to be the Holy Spirit working through me when I personalize my perspectives. In this way I find myself more likely to be honest. I hope for an expression of truth but in the end that is God's domain and subjectively speaking the perogative of the reader.I become content then with the struggle of being honest. It is more than enough....In so far as the context of this dialogue is concerned, I think this;Moderate consumption of alcohol can be a permissable indulgence. It can be fun and relaxing. I think God wants us to relax and have fun. George is right to challenge us with regard to what moderation means and should look like, though. The right understanding of moderation and it's application is crucial to understanding what it means to experience the use of alcohol in a Godly way.Of deeper concern to me is the marrying of alcohol use, as it is experienced and promoted in pub envioronments, with some sense of Christian prayer and worship.I tend to agree that a material Jesus wouldn't have avoided a pub envioronment, had first century Jewish culture offered one. I do think though that His purpose, in part, would have been to encourage it's patrons to seek other, better venues in order to sustain an on going fraternity and deeper immersion into kingdom living.Gospel culture should be used to inform and modify pub culture. Not the other way around.I could say more on the subject, but I think that is enough.About, John Calvin, if his life and work is to be the subject matter of Monday's event, I know very little. What I did read over the past couple of days with regard to predestination, I find discouraging and demoralizing. I found it to objectifying. People are subjects too. The little things, the personal things, matter. To us and to God.While I do agree with reformation perspectives on justification, as a Roman Catholic I feel that what I read does not give enough value to the process of sanctification. Justified by faith, sanctified through works. Works then become not a means to faith and it's gifts but rather a sign, an affirmation of it's presence.More importantly, at least in so far as the experience of my life is allowed to be important to me, the things I do speak louder to the truth of my being, then the things I profess.If the things I do don't mean anything with regard the quality and character of the relationship I have with the Lord our God, then the way in which I understand the relationship to be, is mostly a false and a complete mystery to me.Maybe that's true. I sure hope it isn't.Or more likely, it takes more than two days of reading to get an accurate understanding of what it is Calvin is trying to say and I am misunderstanding his intent.In any case, I look forward to Monday night. (I have adjusted my moving date)It will be an honour and a pleasure to meet good people I have only had the opportunity to "meet" on line.
I love a few brewskies with company or after a hard days work. They just seem to relax me and de-stress me. I praise God for the feeling I get when I drink too - it feels cool. I'm sure glad Jesus made vintage wine at the wedding of Cana. I think Jesus would go to the pubs and chug down a few enjoying the company of those who are spiritually sick and need a physician. The Bible no where forbids drinking booze.
Hey good discussion huh Darryl? Can anyone point me to pub ministry or whatever it is that that is called, that is bearing fruit? As in people are getting saved?Not thinking of your pub night Darryl because you have indicated that is nothing more than just to disuss theology it's not an outreach.Interesting both Paul and Dave at least will admit that it's about relaxing and de-stressing. That of course would be the alcohol content that does that for them. Appreciate your honesty guys.People always want to bring up Jesus hanging out with sinners and turning water into wine and all that. The question is the drinking of then the same as now. Was the alcohol content the same ? Clearly it was not. Someone who has done some great research on all of that and has considered the Bible as a whole in terms of what God has to say about alcohol it is John MacAthur. Here is a detailed message about that that you would be encouraged to read or listen to http://www.gty.org/Shop/Audio+Lessons/1938 Probably not a lot of MacArthur fans around here but it's not about that, the question is about truth, is what he is saying true. Drinking now versus drinking then are two different things.Interesting comment from your poll at theologypub.ca "I’ve missed the last few meetings because I have to drive home afterward and am not sure this is a good idea – especially now that the allowable alcohol level is significantly reduced. This is not, however, a request to change the dynamic of the gatherings – just an acknowledgement that I have to drive after meeting. "Here's a little info about the alcohol content of your pints and what it begins to do to you. Note the effects begin with your first drink. This is from Oxford University researchAfter 1 to 2 units (0.5 to 1 pint of beer - or 20-50mg/100ml) there is not much effect, beside a slight intensification of mood. After 3 to 4 units (1.5 to 2 pints of beer - or 50-80mg/100ml) there is usually a feeling of relaxation and mild sedation. There may be a slight impairment of steady movement. This is the legal limit for driving a vehicle and in fact 4 units of alcohol could put some people over the 80 mg/100ml legal blood alcohol limit. After 5 to 6 units (2.5 to 3 pints of beer - or 80-100mg/100ml) there is usually some loss of physical and mental co-ordination. Judgement and memory may be affected, particularly the ability to concentrate. After 7 to 8 units (3.5 to 4 pints of beer - or 120-200mg/100ml) most people slur their speech and are likely to have some difficulty in standing or walking. This level of intoxication can result in irresponsible behaviour and euphoria. After drinking 15 to 20 units (7 to 10 pints of beer - or 200-300mg/100ml) most people will have passed out.I really do have to ask again, why drink? Why not rather seek to be filled wih the Holy Spirit. He provides a much more relaxed and peaceful environment within one's soul and is so wanting to lead us, especially in our theology discussions as we seek to honor God. It really is all about glorifying God with our lives. Why would we want to hinder His work in our lives at all? What's the wise choice as a follower of Christ?
COOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
George, you're straining at a gnat to swallow a camel.
Hey Darryl, been thinking about this issue a lot a lot a lot. It's an issue I deal with every day in ministry now as we seek to reach those who are in such bondage to their addictions. I keep asking myself what is the wise choice as a follower of Christ as we look at the world around us and the damage that alcohol has caused and is causing.I know we have our liberty as Christians but what is the wise choice. If we really and truly want to be used by God to make a difference what is the wise choice. Who is the God going to inhabit and empower to make a rel difference in the lives of pople who are in such bondage to their sin of addiction. (I also think we really need to start calling it what it is, it's not a disease, it's a sin)It's interesting nobody has been able to point me to a pub ministry that God is using to draw people into the Kingdom.I'm going to leve you wih one more message to check out. This church in Philadelphia is making a big difference in ministry to addicts. They get hundreds of people out to their Monday night meetings. If you go to this page http://www.ccphilly.org/audio/featuredmessages.aspx it's the first messag listed and if nothing else I challenge your readers who claim this liberty to drink to check out the last 15 minutes if they don't want to hear the whole message.What's the wise choice for a follower of Christ who desires to make a difference and be used by God to reach a lost and dying world? I think the answer is so clear.
Thanks, George. I appreciate this.You've hit on the key question: what is wise? I believe this is an issue for discernment. This means that if one chooses to have a drink, they must think about this issue not only in terms of what is sinful or not, but in terms of the impact on others and ultimately what brings glory to God.But there is a tension. We seem to always be teetering on the edge of either legalism or license. If we go too far the other way, we end up implying that Jesus was not wise. Do we really want to draw boundaries that put Jesus on the other side? Human nature on the other side is to set up well-meaning rules that become laws just as the Pharisees did. I'm not saying you are a Pharisee. I'm saying we all have a bit of Pharisee in us. We tend to either become too licentious or too legalistic.There is a tension to be maintained here, and it's not an easy one. Those who say it's always right to drink aren't maintaining that tension, and neither are those who say it's always unwise.
""This means that if one chooses to have a drink, they must think about this issue not only in terms of what is sinful or not, but in terms of the impact on others and ultimately what brings glory to God."That's right, so please consider that in terms of the context we find ourselves in our day and age. Right around your own church are thousands of people every day walking into AA meetings. How many of them are walking into a relationship with Jesus Christ in AA meetings? They are not, they will not discuss Jesus Christ in AA meetings. There is so clearly something missing and we the Church have the missing piece. We the Church open our buildings in many cases so AA can hold their meetings and we think we are doing our part. But people are not meeting the Savior. As my new friend Cyril will tell you here http://www.vimeo.com/6690936 12 step programs like AA help but "still something was missing"So many Christians are so good at defending their right to drink because of their Christian liberty but what are they DOING to try to help those who struggle.This is interesing to me, "Human nature on the other side is to set up well-meaning rules that become laws just as the Pharisees did. I’m not saying you are a Pharisee. I’m saying we all have a bit of Pharisee in us. We tend to either become too licentious or too legalistic."So you're not saying I'm a Pharisee, you're just saying I have a bit of Pharisee in me.Darryl, I'm so glad God knows my heart and my motivation for engaging with you in this discussion. I think it's very important and my heart is for those who are in addictions and to help them be set free. By God's grace I'm seeing it happen and to be a part of it is a fantastic privilege. I believe with all my heart God is going to move powerfully among those addicted. He's going to do a new thing in our area that will cause people to sit up and take notice. The world will then see that our God saves like He saved Cyril. He's going to use His people to bring the message of real Hope to them. He's going to use the Cyril's of the world to reach out to the thousands upon thousands of addicts in our 8.1 million person Golden Horseshoe area with the life giving message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm so thankful that I can be a part of what He will do.Have a good day and a good evening. Say hi to Bill.
George I respect you for your evangelistic zeal. You probably have a spiritual gift of evangelism, and that's why you filter social drinking through that lens. The passages dealing with Christian liberty are concerned about not posing a stumbling block to other Christians and if there's a dilemma it's better to offend a non-christian than a brother for whom Christ died. To social drink with an alcoholic brother would be dumb and offensive, but not everyone has been ravaged with the negative affects of wine or beer or rum. I find the good feeling I get from social drinking to correspond with a party or celebration atmosphere of friends just as God designed it. Obviously it violates your conscience and I wouldn't ever invite you over for a drink but blog posting about drinking is simply an exchange of ideas and hopefully not a means of violating your sensitivity. I believe in drinking wisely but I think the only wisdom you'll accept is to abstain from alcohol. But then why does Paul deal head on with Christian liberty in passages like Ro. 14 and 1 Cor. 6, 8 and 10? Are you ripping these passages out of your Bible? Are you flat-lining all brothers and sisters to the lowest common denominator of weak conscience? I think Paul would have great problems with your approach.
Ian Clary has some good posts on this topic: http://ianhughclary.com/?s=alcoholI enjoyed this quote from Calvin:“The first principle we should consider is that the use of the gifts of God cannot be wrong, if they are directed to the same purpose for which the Creator himself has created and destined for them. For he has made the earthly blessings for our benefit, and not for our harm. No one, therefore will observe a more proper rule than he who will faithfully observe this purpose. If we study for instance, why he has created the various kinds of food, we shall find that it was his intention not only to provide for our needs, but likewise for our pleasure and for our delight. In clothing he did not only keep in mind our needs, but also propriety and decency. In herbs, trees, and fruit, besides being useful in various ways, he planned to please us by their gracious lines and pleasant odors. For if this were not true, the psalmist would not enumerate among the divine blessings “the wine that makes glad the heart of man, and the oil that makes his face to shine.” (Ps. 104:15) And the Scriptures would not declare everywhere that he has given all these things to mankind that they might praise his goodness Even the natural properties of things sufficiently point out to what purpose and to what extent we are allowed to use them. Should the Lord have attracted our eyes to the beauty of the flowers and our sense of smell to pleasant odors, and should it then be sin to drink them in? Has he not even made the colors so that the one is more wonderful than the other? Has he not granted to gold and silver, to ivory and marble a beauty which makes them more precious than other metals or stones? In one word, has he not made many things worthy of our attention that go far beyond our needs (Ps. 104:15)?”