Saturday
Mar032007
No more canned speeches
Saturday, March 3, 2007 at 8:20PM
George has been pushing me to answer how to tell his friend about the gospel. He's not quite happy with my answer yet, but that's OK. I'm suggesting that the best way to do this is to first grasp the Gospel in all its fullness and not settle for the bullet points. I realize that this doesn't seem like the most practical step to take. We're all busy and we live in a Coles or Cliffs Notes world. But if we're really serious about communicating the biblical message, we'd better learn it first. It's not that we have to tell everyone everything we know. As Ron Martoia writes, to communicate well you always have to be a couple of levels above the level of the material you're communicating. "You have to have knowledge at level seven to communicate well at level five." My doctor knows much more than he tells me when I visit him. At least I hope he does, or I'm in big trouble. So that's the first part - getting to know the rich, expansive, multi-layered story of God better. Hard to argue against really. The other practical thing we can do is to work hard at sensing how people's lives and yearnings connect to the God story. This is harder to do if your God story is only a few bullet points. In Static, when a couple pushes Ron about what they're going to say to their friend about the gospel, Ron surprises them with his response.
"Yeah, but, Ron, what do we tell Marty?" Jess was nothing if not persistent. We were a mile away from Outback now. She was feeling that the impending encounter was just minutes away, and she was trying to hasten us along. "How about nothing?" I asked. "What?" Jess stopped tapping on the dashboard and slapped her hand on her knee. "How about listening for the 'hints' in the conversation? How about a commitment not to tell Marty anything for a while? What if we decided to learn how to ask good questions first? And what if we decided to listen carefully? What might happen?" ...Jess let out a sigh. "Isn't that really just giving up, Ron?" "Or is it really learning to love Marty?" I countered. "Learning to appreciate him? Learning to discover who Marty is? Is it learning to look for God, who is already at work in Marty's life? Is it really the more difficult work of connecting a real person--with his own issues and problems, emotions and pet peeves, challenges and potential--to God? Okay, I admit it, Jess. It's not easy and quick. It doesn't fit on a napkin. It's not a sound bite. But it may be what's required. If we don't do that, then we may miss what God is doing long-term in Marty's life. We may miss the variety of ways in which God wants to connect to all the different 'Martys' he has placed on Main Street, in Jackson, or wherever."I saw this happen last year. My role was more of a bystander (midwife?) to what God was doing, rather than salesman. I'm pretty sure that canned gospel presentations aren't the best way to connect people to the God story. Getting to know the story, and then helping people connect to it in a way that's in line with how God is working in their lives, is far better I think.
Reader Comments (33)
Darryl, I'm disappointed you didn't tell me what I should say to my new friend. What you might have said. How about we just tell people the truth. We love them like crazy and in that we tell them the truth. If we don't tell them the whole truth we aren't really loving them as Christ does. My new friend I just met last week as we began a new outreach in downtown Toronto. I shared my testimony and talked about my problems with alcohol in the past. I shared with them what God had done in my life, how He brought me out of the mess I was in and cleaned me up and made me one of His. I shared with them how He has called me to tell people about this awesome God we serve who loves us so much and desires that all people everywhere come to the knowledge of the truth. The truth that can set them free. My new friend, I'll call him Bob, approached me afterwards and wanted to talk about his own problems with alcohol and how he had spent a total of 12 years in prison because of stupid things he did while drunk. He told me he was scared because he blacks out and is afraid he will do something one day soon that he will regret for the rest of his life. But he also told me how for the first time in a long time he had received some money and he didn't go and drink it away as soon as he got it. He told me he was raised Catholic and lately he has been thinking a lot about the things of God. He told me he prays. I asked Bob if he wanted to know God. He told me he did. I asked him about his prayers what does he pray about. He told me he prays asking God to help him. I asked him if he had ever asked God to forgive him. He said no he hadn't done that. I then explained to him in a bit more detail the gospel, kind of along the lines that Jacob suggested in another post. I told him about this amazing God who created us and loves us and desires that we enter into a relationship with Him. I told him about sin and how it is our sin that seperates us from God but how God has provided a way for us to be reconciled to him. I shared with him John 3:16. I told him about the cross and what it means that Christ died for our sins. I got the impression from him that he didn't think God would forgive and change a guy like him. I told him the story of David and how he was considered a man after God's own heart. I told him about how the Bible tells us that David committed adultery and then had the husband of the woman he slept with killed. After all that he was still considered a man after God's own heart because in spite of that wicked sin in his life, he sought God and was always seeking after God and was so remorseful for what he had done. I told him about the great forgiveness that we receive as we repent of our sin with a genuine heart. This awesome God who is always just a prayer away is so willing to forgive us our sin and grant us eternal life and nobody can be that bad that he won't forgive. I asked Bob if he would pray with me. He didn't want to pray out loud himself and that was ok but I prayed with him. I prayed that God might so work in Bob's heart that Bob would see the sin that separates him from God and repent of it and seek God's forgiveness and be saved and receive eternal life. I gave Bob a gospel of John booklet that we were handing out and he left with a smile on his face. I pray now that God will use our time together for His glory and that He would do a mighty work in Bob's life and change him and bring him out of darkness and into His marvelous light. I pray that the truth will set Bob free as it has set me free. I pray that Bob might be another guy that God will use to reach out to others. Maybe to other alcoholics testifying to them about this awesome God that picked him up, cleaned him up and made hiom one of His own and wants to do the same for them as they turn to Him. I'm wondering Darryl, because I'm not understanding where you are going with all this new language stuff, was that the gospel that I presented to Bob? Would you have said things along those lines or would it have been different. From my knowledge of God, what He has done in my life, how He has set me free and from what I read in His amazing Word I believe I told Bob the truth and I believe that is the kind of message that God wants us to share with people. Isn't it true that in order for people to get right with God and to receive salvation they have to deal with their sin. That is the first order of business, they have to come to a place where they recognize they are sinners in need of a Savior. If they don't get to that place or refuse to see that, then they cannot get right with God. We have to love people like Jesus did and He always told them the truth.
Lord, have mercy. Christ, have mercy. Lord, have mercy. And when Bob's addiction overrides the 'have tos' and the 'shoulds' (count them!) and the fuzzies of bonding fade, and he drinks; you gonna throw him back in jail George? Or go to AA with him? Procedamus in pace. Deo gratias.
I'm becoming more and more convinced that the gospel doesn't spread with words as much as we think it does. I know its cliche, but if people were the gospel then I think these questions becomes less and less relevant. I feel like we are lazy, it's easy to point people to the right direction, or to talk to people and tell them great and wonderous things about what Jesus did for them. It's another thing to 'give your life over to your friend' and serve them, and love them (or do we not think they are worth it, afterall they aren't 'saved'). When we actually encapsulate the good news is when the gospel is preached not when we point it out in some far away cognitive place.
george, I think you told your friend part of the stoy. And it sounds to me like you did a good job. But what about the Old Testament? You left out large parts of the story. You reduced the message to its lowest common denominator and that is a dangerous thing to do. Adam and Eve is not just a story about sin. It is a story about design and plan. It is a story about choices. Frankly, if you miss the point of these stories or leave them out you get a different God then the one in the Bible. God isn't able to be reduced to the lowest common denominator. I'm in sales and in sales we talk a lot about spin. My job is to create bite size messages people can understand quickly. I teach my new reps the art of spin. I think a lot of the time I spin God. I break it down and make it easy to digest. But like I said above I end up with a different God. Rob
Hi George, I'm sorry I disappointed you! I agree with Rob. You told part of the story, and it sounds like you did a good job. You even did some of what Ron Martoia suggested and tried to listen so you could connect your friend with the gospel. I love that you have these kinds of friendships. Paul began with sin in Romans, and it's certainly one of the places we can begin. But is this the only way to share the gospel? And is the goal to get someone to pray a prayer? It may be worth looking at how Jesus did this, as well as those who communicated the gospel in the book of Acts. Most of the time they didn't give the gospel presentation that you did. So did they fail? Either they failed, or there are more parts of the story and other aspects we can emphasize besides the "you're a sinner and you can pray to be forgiven" part.
Nathan: "I'm becoming more and more convinced that the gospel doesn't spread with words as much as we think it does...When we actually encapsulate the good news is when the gospel is preached." I'm becoming more and more convinced that this is the job of the church: to encapsulate the gospel. It's not that words are unimportant, but they're not the best way people can see the truth of the gospel. I think you're right on here.
I love the discussion Darryl, I really do. It is so important. It is probably the biggest issue the church needs to deal with today, what is the Gospel. I was so convicted again this morning as I listened to a message at our church. You can change all the words you want. You can talk about redeeming man and redeeming creation. The place where we all have to come to, for those of us in the church or those in the world, is a brokeness before God. If we refuse to see that we will not see God. It doesn't matter who we are. So my friend Bob, who even as I write I think I care more about as a result of bringing him up in this discussion, Bob has to get to a place where he sees his brokeness before God and calls out for His mercy. If Bob doesn't get to that place, that place of brokeness and repentance he will not see God. Jesus came first and foremost preaching a gospel of repentance. Its why He went to the cross to pay for our sin. It's why He came. What is the foundation of our faith? Is it not the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Watch how that will again be discounted in this coming week. But its still true and never changes. Without brokeness there will be no new life. So I ask you again Darryl, what would you say to Bob or to anyone else about how they can come to know God and have peace with Him and to come to an understanding of the truth? How can they be set free and to know they have been forgiven and have received new life and the wrath of God is no longer upon them based on the atoning work of Christ and that they have eternal life. How would you tell them all that? You're telling me what this Ron guy is saying and what others are saying that you have been reading but what would you say?
Darryl just read over your last comment again and was struck by this "Either they failed, or there are more parts of the story and other aspects we can emphasize besides the "you're a sinner and you can pray to be forgiven" part." I could be wrong here and I'm sure you will let me know but it seems to me that is the part right there that you want to distance yourself from. It certainly is what so many others in this emerging church conversation are doing. They don't want talk about the issues of sin and repentance. It is so tragic really because so many people are being led astray as they are not being told the truth. So if you don't want to answer any other questions of mine just answer me one question Does my coming into a right relationship with God start with my brokenness, my understanding of my sinful position before a holy God?
"So I ask you again Darryl, what would you say to Bob or to anyone else about how they can come to know God and have peace with Him and to come to an understanding of the truth?" George, I would tell them about Jesus. But there are so many things I could tell them I can't give you just one. I may tell them about forgiveness, or I may tell them about how he's putting everything right, or how he provides us with what we long for most. I may talk about shame and identity or any number of things connected to who Jesus is and what he's done. Here's the real question: what is the gospel presentation that Jesus gave? Or, what is the gospel presentation that Peter, Stephen, Paul, etc. gave in the book of Acts? Would you agree that if we patterned the way we offered the gospel after how Jesus and the apostles did it, that would be a good thing? You asked, "Does my coming into a right relationship with God start with my brokenness, my understanding of my sinful position before a holy God?" Again, that is a fine option, as Paul showed in Romans. But is that always what Jesus and the apostles did?
Darryl, Jesus came preaching a gospel of repentance. Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand. Before he physically left this earth he told the disciples to go out into all the world and make disciples. In Luke 24 he says 45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. 49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high." Shortly after they received the power of the Holy Spirit and they turned their world upside down, preaching a gospel of repentance. Do you agree it is first and foremost a gospel of repentance? Why did Jesus come Darryl? In Matthew 1 it says "20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[c] because he will save his people from their sins." It hit me one time when I read that, notice how it says his people, not all people. Jesus only saves those people who turn to Him in their brokenness and sin and seek His mercy and grace. In Jesus' prayer in John17 Jesus prays " 6"I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours." But then we also have John 3:16-18 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." God has done it all, the work is finished. He sent His son so we could have life. I can't come to Him unless He draws me yet my life is all about decisions I make, my free will. Nobody can fully grasp that because God is so much greater than we and the secret things of God are known only to God. I don't need to understand that either and I am thankful I don't. I just know that God will not turn away anyone who comes to him with a repentant heart. He is an amazing awesome God full of mercy and grace. We who claim to know Him need to tell people the truth. Tell it like it is and allow God to use the pure proclamation of the Gospel. Do you agree?
"Jesus came preaching a gospel of repentance. Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand." I think you are referring to John the Baptist here, not Jesus. Yes, I do agree with all the Scriptures you quoted. Of course, it's not enough to use words like sin, repentance, and eternal life. We also have to know what Jesus and the Gospel writers meant by them. Is the gospel about sin, repentance, and forgiveness? Of course! Repentance and faith are key concepts - of course they need to be defined. Is it only that? Are there other things to be said, even angles that need to be explored, other ways to say it? We only have to look at Jesus and the apostles to see that the answer is yes. Most of the time, they didn't start with sin. And they never ended with the sinner's prayer. How did Jesus share the gospel? Say, when he announced his mission in Luke 4:16-22? Started the Sermon on the Mount? With the rich young ruler? When he fed the five thousand? When people came to him for healing and he forgave them without any sign that they had repented? How did Paul preach in Acts 17, or Peter in Acts 2? Could you or I communicate the gospel using only the Hebrew Scriptures, as Jesus did in Luke 24:27?
""Jesus came preaching a gospel of repentance. Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand." I think you are referring to John the Baptist here, not Jesus." Check out Matthew 4 Darryl " 17From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (ESV) The NLT has it this way: "17 From then on Jesus began to preach, "Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near.[g]" Its a huge point, it summarizes the gospel. I'll check out those other references Darryl and again, I really do appreciate this discussion, I believe its so important and I've learned from it already. Think about your own standing before God Darryl. What is your own right standing before God all about? What is it based on? Are you not incredibly thankful for what you have in Christ? Of course you are, I know you are. So think about that and think about telling someone about what it is that you have in Christ and how you would communicate to that person what that is and how that is available to him or her. What would you say? I think its a great exercise. Think about it in your own words, what would you say? How do you know God, how did that all come about and what does that mean to you? Now think about describing to someone else the truth of that, knowing that the truth that set you free can set them free.
"How did Jesus share the gospel? Say, when he announced his mission in Luke 4:16-22? Started the Sermon on the Mount? With the rich young ruler? When he fed the five thousand? When people came to him for healing and he forgave them without any sign that they had repented? How did Paul preach in Acts 17, or Peter in Acts 2? Could you or I communicate the gospel using only the Hebrew Scriptures, as Jesus did in Luke 24:27? 1. How did Jesus share the gospel? Almost always with words. 2. Luke 4:16-2216He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: 18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."[e] 20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing." 22All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. "Isn't this Joseph's son?" they asked. What does that mean then Darryl, good news to the poor, (he also said we will always have the poor among us)freedom for the prisoners, recovery of sight to the blind, and release the oppressed. Does it all not relate to the fact that all those people can be set free as they turn to Him? I kept reading and came across this: Luke 5: "31Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Jesus tells us again why He came. 3. The rich young ruler, wasn't his problem that he wouldn't give up his riches, that was his sin was it not? I love how in one of the accounts, I think it was in Mark it says that Jesus looked at him and loved him. He had a compassion for him because he knew what was in the man's heart and how his worldly riches prevented him from coming to Him. Jesus saw sin for what it really was, such a barrier. 4. Feeding of the 5,000 - what is the question about that? 5. "When people came to him for healing and he forgave them without any sign that they had repented?" Where is there an illustration for that Darryl? 6. Acts 17 24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' 29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone--an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead." 32When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, "We want to hear you again on this subject." 33At that, Paul left the Council. 34A few men became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others. What a great sermon, notice verse 30 God commands all people everywhere to repent. Notice verse 32 people sneered at the resurrection. You watch this week in the news how people will do that as that documentary is aired. (Lets all use that as a entry point to share the truth about our faith) 7. Peter in Acts 2 another great sermon "38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call." 40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. After everything he had said prior to that he then tells them their need to repent. They believe it and 3000 people are saved. Amazing, all about repentance. 8. "Could you or I communicate the gospel using only the Hebrew Scriptures, as Jesus did in Luke 24:27?" I don't know about you Darryl, but I sure couldn't I do read this in English though "47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Conclusion - Could it be any clearer that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners? Could it be any clearer that if we are to receive God's free gift of salvation, we need to repent. Could it be any clearer that is the message the world today desperately needs to hear? Could it be any clearer that message is so seldom heard in the Church today. Could it be any clearer that is why we are in the mess we are? Do you agree Darryl? (sorry for the long answer I wanted to address your points)
Thanks, George. I really appreciate all the work you've done. I don't know if you caught in Luke 4 that Jesus selectively quoted Isaiah 61 and purposely left out part of the text - the part about God's vengeance - because it would be fulfilled later. It wasn't going to be the focus of his earthly ministry. Also, I don't think Jesus was only talking about spiritual freedom and healing in Luke 4 given what he relays back to John the Baptist in Luke 7:22-23. I agree that repentance is important, but I would challenge you to look into what the word means. Some people think it's about feeling bad or being really sorry about sins, but that's not the meaning at all. Here's another neat question. Who did Jesus call to repentance? Largely, it's those in Israel who thought they were in with God because of their status as Israelites and their righteousness. These are the people he called to repentance. On the other hand, he was scandalous in how he related to those who are sinners. He didn't major on their sin and sometimes the subject hardly came up. Some showed faith but not what we would normally call repentance, such as the woman caught in adultery or the man whom Jesus healed in Matthew 9:2, or the woman who anointed his feet. The bottom line is that Jesus and the apostles didn't give the gospel the way that you did. That means either that you are wrong or that there are other ways to give the gospel as well. It's certainly hard to find a formula. Stephen and Peter recounted the history of Israel. Paul talked about the Athenian longing for the divine. Jesus announced that those who were excluded by the religious system can now be accepted. It's hard to find a sinner's prayer anywhere. I'm not minimizing sin. I am suggesting that there's a richness in the Gospel, that it's more than about feeling guilty, praying a prayer, and going to heaven after we die. To someone whose life is falling apart and who is finally seeking God, we can talk about the fact that only in Christianity do we have a God who is searching for us. He promises that we will find him if we seek him with all of our hearts. To someone longing for justice, we can point out that this is a reflection of God's character, and that he is restoring justice through the work of Jesus Christ. We can talk about the love that we're all looking for and have never found in another human being. We can talk about how that God through Christ is the only one who can love us freely and unconditionally. It is the love we've always been looking for. To those who are struggling with shame, we can point to the origin of shame in the Garden of Eden and how Christ has dealt with that. We can talk about him as the bread or water of life, the one who all that we need. We can talk about who Jesus is and how those who follow him are changed so that they really love each other and show divine power in how they relate to each other. And yes, we can talk about sin and forgiveness too. And there's so much more. I hope this helps. Because I want a bit of my life back, though, I would encourage you to buy Ron's book for the $10 or so and spend a few hours interacting with it. I think you'll find it interesting.
"The bottom line is that Jesus and the apostles didn't give the gospel the way that you did. That means either that you are wrong or that there are other ways to give the gospel as well. " Ok Darryl, that's what I have been asking you, your take on what the gospel is. I think you have yet to really do that. Please tell me what you would say to my friend Bob. You said you would tell him about Jesus. What does that mean, what about Jesus would you tell him? Please don't refer me to some book that you agree with, please just tell me in your own words what the gospel is, how can my friend Bob be saved and come to know that he has eternal life? I guess after all this I'm confused about what it is that you really believe about the gospel and I'm probably not alone. You brought up the subject on what the gospel is but have yet to give us your understanding. You have much more Bible knowledge than I do, please if I am so wrong, enlighten me. How can someone be saved Darryl? How did it happen for you? Salvation that is. What are we saved from? What is the message that the world desperately needs to hear? How can people get right with God? How did you? When you think about your own salvation does that not spur you on to want to help other people come to know the Savior that you know? How can people do that? Why do we not share our faith more? If someone is confronted with the reality of their own sin and how it is their sin that seperates them from God and they are broken over that and have remorse and repent and pray to God pleading for his mercy, don't you think that's a good start. If they are genuine as they call out to God will he not be there for them, in a most amazing way, communicating to them His great forgiveness? Its not about a formula Darryl, its about conviction of sin. Are you ever convicted over your own sin? When you are, what do you do? Why did Jesus die on a cross? Just give us the straight goods as you see it Darryl, once and for all, so we are clear on exactly where you stand. What exactly are your convictions with respect to what the gospel is and what is it that the world needs to hear about Jesus Christ. I for one would like to know.
Hi George, Actually, I've already done that a few times. ;) The Gospel is what God is doing to rescue and redeem all of creation through the work of Christ. What Christ did at the cross could fill many books: he bore God's wrath for our sins, conquered evil, expressed solidarity with those who are victims of injustice, reconciled us to God, and more. George, I like your focus on forgiveness of sins and life after death and I agree. But that's one room of a large house. It's an important room but there's more. So what would I tell your friend? I would explore as many rooms as I could, especially the ones that are relevant to his situation. So let me ask you again: how come Jesus and the apostles frequently gave the gospel a different way than you did? Were they wrong or is there more than one way to approach the subject?
As an interested observer in a fascinating dialogue some intuits come to mind. Maybe some right, maybe some wrong. Firstly, George thank you for an always cheerful, tenacious, sometimes smothering, always self effacing, testimony. I'd like to get mad at you at times but you bring too much love of God to the table for me to feel anything other than embarrassment over that notion. The Spirit is with you George. Praise God. I also feel a certain personal kinship with you, George in that the foundations for my faith are "laid" of personal brokenness. And I would also agree entirely with the proposition that it is "first and formost a gospel of repentence". And therein, as the saying goes, lies the rub. Perhaps for many, particularly if the have lived comfortable, quiet, mostly virteous lives, there is no compelling spirit within them exhorting them to repent. I think it is easy for a guy like me, with serious sins of commission, to confront the truth of his brokeness and his need for repentence. It must be a lot harder for people whose sins might be primarily of ommission to come to the same conclusion. Particularly when we live in a world that mostly judges our do's and not our don'ts. Keep on keeping on, George. Who knows maybe your Darryl's spiritual muse...(you can thank me for that one later Darryl) :) Or maybe, Darryl also speaks of truth when he says that it is a gospel of all you suggest and more... "He was a burning and shining lamp and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. But I have a testimony greater that John's"... John 5:35-36 Peace
Thanks, Paul, for your wise words. Ultimately, I agree with George that the main problem is sin. The main solution is that God has dealt decisively with sin through the cross. Where we disagree is perhaps on the impact, and how to communicate this. Forgiveness is only a part. Ultimately, God is restoring all things to what they should have been. He's doing this with people who enter into relationship with him. He's ultimately doing this with the whole world. With people, he not only forgives them but he gives them new power and allows them to be part of what he is doing. That's why we can tap into more than just the sin and forgiveness issue. We can also tap into people's longing for the way we were meant to be, and the intimacy we were meant to enjoy with God. That's not to say we can't talk about sin. Sin is the issue. But you can come at it from more than one direction: our yearnings for the way it was supposed to be, our experience of brokenness as a result of sin, or our legal standing before God. While the last option is valid, it's not the only one. Anyway, I have appreciated this discussion. Just for the record, George and I frustrate each other at times but there are no hard feelings, at least on my end. Hope that's true on your end too, George.
That is true Darryl, there are no hard feelings and yes you do frustrate me at times. I think the bottom line so often with Christians is we shy away from telling people the hard truth. I'm talking generally here. We want to share the gospel in a way that isn't offensive. We fear the rejection of man. We fear man more than we fear God. You can open all the rooms you want when you are talking to someone like Bob. But if you just have a few minutes with a guy like that and you want to share some truth with him that can change his life, that can brring him to salvation what room would you open? How do people receive salvation? What does it really mean to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved? If we aren't telling people the whole truth, we aren't loving them like Jesus did. It is sin that he died for. Darryl, where does it say he died for the creation? Is there not going to be a new heaven and a new earth? Do you think Christians should be just as concerned over environment issues as they should be about sharing the gospel that can set people free and bring them life?
Hey Paul good to hear from you and thanks for your encouragement. Hope all is well with you. Are you a Toronto area guy?
George, as much as I appreciate the theology exam, I think you have an outstanding question to answer. ;) Why didn't Jesus and the apostles always offer the gospel the same way as you're suggesting?
Darryl, he always loved them and told them the truth. He hung out with sinners, absolutely. He is who I want to model my life after now that I am one of His. Its why I desire to do what I am trying to do by His grace in downtown Toronto. He has given me that burden to reach out to the so called down and outs To reach out to the unreachable. But you would portray me as soemone else. I thought about this as I read your last post where you said this: "Perhaps surprisingly, Jesus did as well. But guess who he did it with? The religious establishment - those who were so confident in their driving that they denied that the accident was a problem. Jesus hammered them, the proud religious people of his day." I'm going to assume that after all this discussion I have had with you that might be a little dig my way. That I would be a part of that religious establishment that Jesus would take issue with. Be honest with me Darryl, if Jesus were physically here today, in your opinion He would be hammering me right, proud and religious. Is that your point with that post? If it is, please be honest and tell me and then give me a chance to respond. I will not be able to respond till later today but I will respond.
No, George, I didn't intend that as a dig toward you. Not at all. That didn't even cross my mind as I wrote that post. I know you're aren't denying sin in your life or confident in your own righteousness. It's very evident that you know God's grace in your life. I view you as someone who perhaps has not explored everything the gospel has done. You know part of the story very well. Maybe I'm wrong but that's how I see you. I can relate to that person as well because that person is also me. I guess I'm trying to point out that Jesus always brought people the truth, but he related to different kinds of people in different ways. The gospel message is so vast that we can share it with people in different ways, even though you eventually come to the same core. I'm guessing that you're acknowledging that Paul, Peter, Jesus and others presented the gospel in various ways. Is that right? If so, I think we may be getting somewhere.
Hey George, You're welcome. Yeah, I'm an area guy. I live in Mississauga, near Square One, but grew up in the Parklawn, Berry Rd. area of southern Etobicoke. Ironicly I believe Darryl was a Pastor at a Parklawn baptist church earlier in his ministry. Though I attended the local Catholic church, (St. Mark's) it still means were from the same 'hood, so....GO EASY ON MY BOY!!! LOL...... Seriously George, your commitment to the Lord is inspiring but can it not be, that in Darryl's own way, his commitment is just as serious. St. Paul speaks to us and tells us of his great efforts to be "all things to all people" in order to win them for God. He allows the contexts of his envioronments to influence his methodology. Your context George, is dealing with "front line" brokeness. Very specific; very intense. Darryl's context is much different, he is responsible for shepperding a much larger community of people. A community of more diverse concerns and personality then you are encountering. Like it or not, Darryl's position requires some kind of "political sensitivity" and variety of expression. Good leadership, by definition, requires compromise; not with the objective but with the "means". God can use us all, in different ways, for the good of His Kingdom.... "If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? 1 Corinthians 12:17 (NRSV Catholic edition)
Paul: I wish I had known you when you and I were in the same area. I think you're right that our contexts are different. I don't know if I would phrase it in terms of compromise, but I know what you mean. It says something that even within Scripture we have four different accounts called "Gospels". They are the same gospel, but with different areas of emphasis and different audiences. There's more than one way to say it. "God can use us all, in different ways..." Amen to that.