Wednesday
Nov102004
A Contrarian Manifesto for the Church Growth Debate
Wednesday, November 10, 2004 at 10:47AM
A rant by Michael Spencer:
I don't care about the Purpose-Driven Church, the Emergent Church, the Seeker Church, The Church-Growth Church or any other trendy moniker. I'm into the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church...I don't agree with everything in the rant, but I sure agree with him overall.
Reader Comments (12)
I read it and I thought, boy a lot of truth in here. But there was this lingering feeling in the background that wouldn't let go. The feeling someone's arrived and no one else has. The feeling that everyone else has compromised and he won't and he'll fight if necessary. The feeling of very little grace towards anyone that even for a second disagrees. He talks so much about his journey and that he's done it all - therefore he's guilty of all he condemns others for doing, yet there's no grace for anyone who might be in the same journey he went through himself. What's worst, this PDL pablum he speaks against or truth without grace...Paul's, Luther', and Spurgeon's gospel which he preaches...one says I'm of Appollos, Paul...whatever happened to Jesus' Gospel? Oh ya, it's the same thing. I should have posted there, but I have no time for the "fight". Overall, lots of truth, so little grace...and I understand maybe he's angry, ..frustrated...where's my grace afterall?
A rant is a rant, and I don't think it has to be high on the grace quotient. There is a sense that he knows what he has is deeper than what he sees around him, which is probably true. Perhaps there is something deeper than what he knows, but he has stopped looking for it, content to wait for the end. I think there is something deeper than what he knows and what I know. After I spend 10 minutes in the book of acts I realize that we could have so much more. I agree that another method or style isn't going to get us there. Most, but not all of what I see in the EC is a different generation remaking church in their image. The same mistake the boomers have made. I like the post all in all.
Okay so Michael and I are the same age and believe in essentially the same message. His words are defiant and confrontational, yet they resonate truth. His message, though delivered with a passion I envy, affirms the obvious. We, as a Christian family are not well. No one needs to tell us, the patient knows he is sick. I've spent a lot of time, since obtaining my first computer three months ago, talking, either directly or indirectly, to this issue. Many of you have been doing the very same thing for a lot longer. Speaking for myself, I am dissapointed that I too often digress into subject matter and perspectives on said subject matter, that unfortunately add to the distress, not to the remedy. So I will take a "riff" off Michael's article and speak from the heart. I hope all of you will one day consider attending a Catholic church. Not in the way so many Catholics do, barely attentive or committed to engaging with Christ. But with the same zeal, energy and commitment you bring to your own faith journeys. I believe what you will find there, if you give it a chance, is everything you are all so dilligently and reverently looking for. In saying this I do not mean to suggest you should dispense with the dialogues and communities you have established. Rather I think you should continue to persue them just as faithfully as you are. I believe our faith's traditions and self expression are wholly reconciliable in Jesus. They need not be mutually exclusive. May God continue to bless you all
Paul, what is it do you think that everyone is so dilligently and reverently looking for?
Hi George.It would probably be better if you asked this question of someone who is experimenting with newer forms of Christian worship. I can make a couple of observations though, based on what I read. I believe that many people, formerly associated with mainstream Protestant churches, are looking for a faith expression that captures more of the supernatural presence and mystery of Jesus Christ. I think that for many a Sola Scriptura approach to faith, too easily slips into legalism. As well I see a desire to reconnect with traditions that many Protestant sects have abandoned, particularly with respect to communion. If you'd like to confirm, correct or add to my observations I'd be more than willing to listen. Peace
Paul, I believe what it is all about is the relationship. I believe many people are good at being religious but don't have the relationship. That's where I was for most of my life. But now I have the relationship with Christ and it is where I have found freedom. Sin no longer has the hold on me that it did. How then do I grow in the relationship? How can I know him on a deeper level? I believe its through His Word as His Spirit guides. That is just so clear. I can confidently testify as to how I have grown in relationship with Him because of His Word. Not because of anything I have done of myself, only as he leads and guides. In the relationship, legalism should not enter. In the relationship my behaviour will change as I seek to live submitted to Him. That will be reflected in my conduct. Not because of rules or traditions but out of love for what He has done for me. I wouldn't want to compromise that. I believe what people are searching for is purpose and meaning and it can only be found in relationship, first with God then with others. What do you believe it is in the Catholic church that I will benefit from that I can't in a non denominational Bible believing church?
Well said George, clearly the truer perspective of a first person experience. As to your question George the answer begins and ends with the Eucharist. Through the mystery of transubstantiation bread and wine are transformed into the literal presence of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. It is not simply an act of rememberence or symbolic recreation of a biblical event. We say, we can and do manifest Jesus in bread and wine. We say, come and eat and be filled with him. We say this is spiritual manna, essential to full participation in, and developement of, the Kingdom here on earth.
Paul, do you believe participation in the Eucharist is essential for salvation?
For me, absolutely. For everyone else, I don't know. All good things are possible with God. What I do know, is that without the Eucharist, it all starts to become a lot like myth and legend. A really good idea, but who knows for sure. Through Communion George, God becomes alive and real, not just an abstract presence I hope to encounter. I can and often have, denied my faith but I always come home, I always come back to the truth. No matter how persuasive and seductive worldly arguements become, the power of the Eucharist will always persuade me.
Paul, I hope you don't mind these questions. Is the participation of the Eucharist more important to you then God's Word, the Bible? You say without the Eucharist it all starts to become a lot like myth and legend? How can that be when you have God's Word to guide you?
George: I don't know if you need to choose between the Bible and Eucharist. The two aren't incompatible. Since the Bible instructs us to celebrate the Eucharist, we're showing our fidelity to Scripture when we take it seriously. While I don't agree with all Catholic theology on Mass, I think they are right to emphasize it much more than most Protestants do.
No I don't mind George. But before I respond, thank you very much Darryl both for your insight and for encouraging this discussion. George, please excuse me if I imply that the Bible is somehow less important, it isn't. I guess what I mean to say in is that the Eucharist is more intimate. I sometimes stuggle with Scripture, George. I don't always understand it, I don't always agree with it. To often my relationship with the Word is overly intellectual. I let "getting the point" become the point and I forget to live in love. The Eucharist is Christ's enduring sacrifice, not just then but now and forever. I feel loved when I receive Holy Communion, George. And I love my Lord back in a way that I'm not able to replicate by reading the Word. Hope that helps. God bless.