Keep asking

This post is from the defunct blog "Dying Church"

Rediscovering Essence: What I Learned from the Church of the Savior in Washington D.C. by Mike Bishop:

But even before COS dealt with the issue of calling, they asked a very simple, profound, question - "What is church?" The scary thing is that I've been asking this same question for more than a year now. Gordon Cosby posed the question another way to us during our meeting, "What did Jesus intend his church to look like?" Or, "What is the essence of the church?" Now the intent of this question is not to recapture what the church in the Book of Acts looked like or something. No church can copy another's methods or structure and expect the same results. No, the question is - what did Jesus envision his church to look like? What is important to him? After all, he is the head of the church. He thought up the idea of gathering a group of disciples for mutual support in 'the Way'. So what was he really after? As with calling, I think it's important to realize that we can never fully rest in one definition of what church is. The question has many different answers for many varied places and times. As a matter of fact, Cosby offered this word of advice to us young church planters. "Your job is to keep asking that question as long as you live." Because - and this is critical - "We grow by asking the right questions not by getting answers."... I'm not talking just about ministry to the poor or learning how do church in a changing culture. I'm talking about the total redefinition of what 'church' really is. About re-asking the question, "What is church?"

Interesting article. I think a lot of us mistake one model of church with the true essence of a church. They hear talk of leaving churches and they read questions that make them uncomfortable, but they don't realize that we're not questioning the church as much as we are a model of doing church, one that really isn't working too well. The less we focus on models, the more we'll be able to ask the question: what kind of life did Jesus envision us to live together?

Comments

[George]

"They hear talk of leaving churches and they read questions that make them uncomfortable, but they don't realize that we're not questioning the church as much as we are a model of doing church, one that really isn't working too well." I think the question is why is the model of doing church not working too well. In some of the churches it is doing very well. What is the difference then? What is the difference between the churches that are doing well and those that are not? Those churches that are using the same model. I find this very interesting Darryl. I want to be part of a church that is committed to winning people for Christ. Not just surface changes but real life transformation. Some churches using the same model you are talking about are able to accomplish that more successfully than others. Why is that? I'm not talking about numbers here or mega churches. Just churches where people have a real desire to work for Christ because they are so grateful for what Christ has done in their lives that they so enthusiastically want to share that with others. Isn't that what it is all about? I personally don't think the problem is the model of church, I think it is the people in the church. Its in their level of commitment and surrender to Christ. On all levels, leaders and lay people. I think again of Jim Cymbala's church in New York. Same kind of model as yours and look at what that church is doing. I don't here him talk about the model not working. That's the kind of church I long for, one that reaches out to the kinds of people he reaches out to. And just look at the results. There's no doubt God is blessing his church immensely. Same kind of model as the others. What's the difference? He talks about a lifetime criminal in his book Fresh Power who came to Christ and is now working at the Brooklyn Tabernacle At the end of this particular story he says the following: "The power of the Holy Spirit got ahold of this giant of a man and stopped his self destruction. And the same Spirit of God who turned him to Christ and salvation has kept him clean and victorious ever since. Think of the power potential we have available to us through God's Word anointed by the Holy Spirit. Not just the Word only, nor an emphasis solely on the Spirit-we must have the Word and the Spirit together bringing blessing and salvation. He continues: "Let us pray for pastors everywhere, that a fresh, fiery anointing will come upon us as we speak from our pulpits. Let us ask God for preaching in our churches that brings the things of heaven down to earth with such power that our towns cities, country and world will be forever changed. Let us all join with that sincere man of God from another era who expressed his heart's desire in these words: "I long more and more to be filled with the Spirit, and to see my congregation moved and melted under the Word, as in the great revival times, 'the place shaken where they are assembled together' because the Lord has come in power." After all the sutff I've read on the emerging church I still don't get it. I don't understand the need to get out of this model of doing church. I think people live with so much doubt. They doubt the Spirit of God can revive the church as it is. I thinks its because they don't totally want to surrender to the Spirit. They say they do but just look at their lifestyle and it is obvious they don't. And then they wonder why the church isn't being more effective. Its so easy if you hang around with a bunch of doubters to become one yourself. I believe God is calling us all back to holiness and godliness in the church. Cymbala clearly sees that and voices that. And look at what God is doing in his church. I wonder if there is a correlation.

[Darryl]

George: There are pockets of churches working here and there, but can we really say the model is working as a whole? Look in North America as a whole. It's hard to argue that the church as a whole is having much of a postive impact. What's more, the model isn't taught in Scripture. In fact, the model there is much closer to what you find in house churches today. So it's not working in over 90% of churches that use the model, and it's not Scriptural. That should tell you something. Let me put it a different way. The Protestant Reformation was a reaction against some of the abuses in the Catholic church of the day. I think you could probably have found some parishes where no abuses were taking place. Could you then argue that the Catholic church didn't need Reformation because a few were good? I'm not completely against the old model because of the few churches that use it that are doing something, like you mention. But I find it hard to understand why so many within that model are threatened by something new.

[George]

What about the call to holiness and godliness? Do you not see that as being the key? There wouldn't be so much dissatisfaction with the church if people saw authentic Christian living from the people within.

[Darryl]

I would hope that would be a given in both models. And yes, people are looking for us to be genuine. But people are also looking for more. For instance, while many are drawn to the modern church, many others will never be drawn to it for all sorts of reasons. And not always bad ones either.

[George]

I don't understand what the more is. I don't think it should be about what we are looking for, but rather what is God looking for from us. It should always be about Him and what he wants and not about us and what we want.

[Darryl]

George, I couldn't agree more. I just don't agree with you that the modern institutional church is it. Many have talked about this at length. I'm not trying to put you off, because I'm sure you attend a good church. But it's not the only way. Do we have to be so Sunday-focused? Is the only way to do church to sit and listen to someone lecture? Is our goal to win people to the church or to Christ? Are our buildings a good use of money? How many lives are we seeing transformed? I would encourage you to read a book like The Present Future by Reggie McNeal. I think you'll find it stimulating. I'm not out to be cynical, but I think the questions that many are asking aren't critical by nature. They're trying to return to the essence of what it means to be a church.

[A Different George]

Good conversation! To me when we first left The Institutional Brick & Mortar Church we thought that House Church and Networks were "The Way" but here two years later God has shown us the it is not either or, but both and. We need to hold with an open hand our forms of gathering as the church. At the same time we need to recognize that God is working in each. I believe what we need to focus on is how we can work together without demanding others become part of our paradigm. All the while accknowleding the others right to exist equally.

[Jeff]

I agree, this is an interesting conversation. I seem to have run into similar ideas elsewhere on the web. Forgive me for being ignorant, but what exactly is the "model" of church that isn't working? Is it the liturgy, or perhaps the style of worship? I'm interested because back in the early 70's when I was about 19 years old, I can recall hearing some of the same things being said among the "Jesus Freaks". Thanks and God Bless, Jeff

[Carla]

Jesus says to follow Him and to love one another. We, the people who follow Him are His church or eklesia. We are scattered, but our love for our Lord is true. May we seek Jesus anew each day, seek to follow Him on the narrow way. His words are pure and simple, if we would trust and obey, be His family, step out in faith today. He is a bright light shining, may Jesus shine through us. Come and follow Jesus. In His love, Carla carlah@jesusfamilies.org www.Jesusfamilies.org