Saturday
Jan242004
Creech on pastors
Saturday, January 24, 2004 at 3:56PM This post is from the defunct blog "Dying Church"
Alan Creech on what pastors do:I'm thinking if we're going to reinvent the thing, let's just reinvent the whole damn thing and not just the structural outer shell. I mean full-time, paid staff pastors who preach every Sunday and do pretty much all the ministry and stress themselves silly over every little thing in the community - yada, yada. I think this will kill us if we keep this up. It's beginning to happen, but we've really got to reinvision what it means to be a pastor, leader, elder, whatever in our new churches. I don't think we can afford to keep the old pastoral paradigm alive any more. We can't do that and expect to happen what we want to happen in these communities. Leadership - yes. Shepherding - yes, OK, fine. Are there people who are gifted to teach, etc.? Obviously. Are these the only ones? Are these folks (US, ME) the only ones who do anything? Maybe we all think we've gotten past that - that we really do believe in "every member a minister" and all that. I think we are starting to get there - we need to put this thing into drive, though, and get the hell on down the road. I do think this idea - some are talking about it - Peterson, Hunter, etc. - about the pastor/elder as spiritual director is a good one. One who is there to help equip everyone for real ministry (have we heard THAT a million and a half times!?). Right, not the one who does the bills and stresses over everything and hires and fires people and counsels absolutely everyone, solving every problem. Not that. I quit if it's that.
Reader Comments (14)
No Darryl, I don't think I missed the essence of what he is saying. He just sounds like someone who gripes with establishment but doesn't offer much of an alternative. And what about using that kind of language Darryl? Does that make sense to you. A supposed man of God who is starting something new with this emerging church thing and he would lump the established church as that "damn thing" and lets "get the hell on down the road" I'm real interested to see how he rationalizes the use of that kind of language. I posted over on his site we'll see if he responds.
George, Alan is more than a griper. He is doing what he writes about. As for the language, it's not what I would choose myself, but I think it's done to make a point. It breaks cultural norms, at least within evangelical circles, but it's not exactly immoral. Don't get hung up on the language or start questioning his character. Even if you disagree with him, he's someone we can learn from.
He totally loses me when he starts using that kind of language. That tells me something about him and his character. Even if I was dissolusioned with church like he obviously is I don't think I'd be calling it that damn thing. I wonder what Christ thinks about Alan Creech calling His church that damn thing. If we get "the hell on down the road" where will we be? we
George, sounds like you may have focused on two words and missed the essence of what Alan is saying.
I haven't learned anything from him yet other than he's a pretty negative kind of guy. Where's the joy in the emerging church? I sure don't sense that emerging church people have a whole lot of joy in their lives. At least not the blogging types. What's up with that? Its too much about what they want and not enough of what God wants and demands. It 'll never work if that's their attitude. Doesn't make any sense.
George, that's a little unfair. Anyway, it hasn't been my experience - I'm referring to the fun part. "It's too much about what they want and not enough of what God wants and demands." That's not even close to being true. I respect you for disagreeing, but here you're making assumptions about motives, which is always a dangerous thing.
Yea, you're right, but it truly is the feeling I get when I read most of their stuff.
The two words don't bother me, but I'll admit that the attitude coming through is the loudest part of the post. I'm not sure there is anything wrong with that though, in fact, the need for a change in the way "Pastor" is understood deserves to stir up some passion. And it will.
That's too bad, George. There's irony in all of this. You are being negative about the emerging church, just as emerging church types are negative about the established church. Everyone I can think of is negative about something: Tozer about complacency, Cymbala against prayerlessness, etc. I don't think the problem is that emerging church types are negative, because they do stand for something. I think, bottom line, you don't like them being critical of something you hold dear. Does this make sense?
I hear you Darryl. You say the emerging church stands for something, I just am not sure what that is. Its not very clear to me from what I've read. What I hold dear is my relationship with God through Christ. That's what its all about. What God has done for me. It overwhelms me personally when I reflect on what he has done in my life and that of my family. I am forever grateful. I love life. I'm living the freedom that can only come in Christ. As I pursue him more he reveals more. He has given me a desire to share the good news with others. I can't keep my mouth shut about it, because I know He will do for others what he has done for me. When I consider what he has done and the penalty he paid so I could be set free I need to really pay attention to how I live my life and what I say and what I show to the world about how he has impacted my life. I am very conscious of that and believe we all should be. As a follower of Jesus Christ I must consider what it means to become more Christ like with each passing day. That's a doing thing. That's part of the sanctification process, one that does not end until I die or he returns. As I grow in the Word and study it and ask him to guide me in it it just becomes so clear to me that is what it is all about. As I begin my day in the Word and in prayer its incredible how that impacts the rest of the day. He is showing me that he is so willing to work with me and to help me and guide me if only I keep him first in all I do. Its so great. All this stuff about the emerging church is educational for me. As I dialogue with different people about it (usually in blog world) I'm just telling you what I think. I do want to challenge people about it because what I read doesn't make sense to me. The compromise is so evident. When you can have a leader in the emerging church refer to Christ's church as that "damn thing" and I'm the only one challenging him on that that tells me something right there. He tells me he doesn't see anything wrong with that kind of language I am then told by him and by you that I am missing the point of what he is saying. Can somebody explain to me how using that kind of language is helpful. You can minimize that all you want but I believe it is incredibly hurtful. Again I go back to what Christ has done for us and for someone to smugly use that kind of language is disgraceful to say the least. And then he won't even publicly defend it when challenged on it. See I believe that's the incredible impact of the world and its culture on so many a so called Christian life. So many Christians want God on their terms and aren't willing to totally surrender to God. I can't see how anyone totally surrendered to God can use that kind of language, it does not make any sense. I know I'm kind of going on about this but I think its important, because it all comes back to that holiness thing again and what exactly does that mean for a modern day Christian. I don't see a whole lot of emphasis on that in emerging church discussion. Isn't holiness the expression of our commitment to Christ?
George, be careful. You've eseentially created a straw man of an emerging church person as being an unsurrendered, bear-drinking, cussing and compromising individual, and then condemned that. No problem if the emerging church is not for you, but what you've written seems a little unfair. I'll try to post on what I think is at the essence of the emerging church later.
George: What's wrong with saying damn? Even if it is wrong, why write off the emerging church movement because of it? Any more than I could write off any movement because it has blind spots and imperfect leaders? Is Protestantism wrong because Martin Luther was so flawed? I'm glad you're pushing and searching, because I'm sure the emerging church is full of blind spots, just like every other movement. But the same arguments you're using also successfully invalidate the established church and anything else you can think of. I just realized this morning: emerging church types are less radical, I think, than lots of movements you and I respect in the past: the Reformers, the Puritans, etc. Like those movements, I think we're trying to say that some of how we've come to do church is actually getting in the way of following Christ closely. And on that charge, I think they are absolutely right.
I'm glad you're pushing and searching as well Darryl, and I hope and pray that you would seek God in all you do also with respect to the emerging church. That's what it is all about right? Where is the talk about submission in the emerging church. Submitting to Christ and to his word and to his will for our lives. I don't read it. I read a lot about trying to get to God on human terms and not on His. The Bible is very clear on how we are to come to God and to submit to Him. When we truly and honestly and genuinely do that our lives will change. Our language will change, our habits will change, we will be set apart from the world in our conduct, right? Where do I read that in the emerging church. I don't . I read that in God's word for sure and I personally will press on with God's help to become all that he wants me to become. I was so much a part of that world for so much of my life. I see it now for what it truly is. To see the world more and more as God sees it can only come about as I submit to Him. I still don't really understand what the emerging church really is. Nobody has been able to define it for me. Can you? Is it all about groups of people meeting in homes? No real leaders, no corporate worship just everybody doing their own thing as they feel led? What is it Darryl? What's the goal of the emerging church? I read some of them are meeting in pubs over beers. Yea I'm sure that will really assist them in their walk with God. That was always a good thing for me. Not. See , here's the thing for me. God has changed my life and I want to work for him. I desire to be effective for him. So that others might come to have a relationship with Him. That he could use me to bring that about humbles me greatly. I am a nothing. Its all about God. We are so far away from God as a society its alarming to say the least. In what way can I be most effective for God? That's what I'm wrestling and praying through at this time in my life. Learning more about church and all the different types is leading me in a certain direction. It certainly isn't in the direction of the emerging chruch like it is for you, but I would like to know what makes the people tick who are becoming a part of it, so I'm educating myself on it. I know I have a ways to go on that but I am getting a general sense of what it is all about and so far I am not impressed at all. I see a lot of compromise and a lot of trying to be cool. So people will think, hey what a cool bunch of people over there, their into God but hey they're so cool. They even swear and stuff and they don't really worry or concern themselves with what they watch or listen to, its all so cool. Yea, that's the kind of people I want to be with, I don't really have to change my lifestyle and I can still have God in the picture and go to heaven and all that, this is so great. Trouble is it doesn't work that way. When we receive Christ our lives will change and the things of this world will become less and less attractive to us as we see them for what they really are. In the emerging church what does it mean to be born of the Spirit? What is taught about that? What does my life look like after I have been born of the Spirit?
Darryl: As I was writing through the previous post I kept thinking about what Christ had to say about recognizing people by their fruit, so I had to look it up and thought I'd post it here 15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' I believe there are many of those in the world today and in probably every church. I pray God by his Spirit grants me a sense of discernment to identify them. I will start by looking at the fruit. Believe me I am also very conscious of this as it pertains to me persoanlly. Have a great day Darryl, we got us a storm coming. I mean the weather.