I tipped my hand yesterday. I’d like to be able to build a firewall between God and the choices that people make. Why?
- It is a compelling answer to the problem of evil. It makes sense of the fact that God is good and powerful, and bad stuff still happens.
- It preserves human freedom, which is implicit in Scripture. People are not puppets. They make choices and decisions that are meaningful.
- It saves us from having to explain how God “caused” bad – even evil – things to happen.
There’s a lot to like about the view that God permits us to make free choices that are, at some level, out of his control.
But earlier this year I was overwhelmed as I read John Frame’s The Doctrine of God. Blame him! What really struck me was what he describes as the “sheer quantity and variety” of Scriptures that teach that God controls all things – even what appear to be free human actions. Frame says that it’s “quite impossible to escape the cumulative force of all of them…One may deftly avoid a few rocks, but one cannot escape them all.” I tend to agree.
What’s more, these verses don’t really seem to violate human freedom either. Somehow they seem to imply that humans make meaningful choices, and at the same time that God controls all things. This is called an antinomy – a seeming contradiction between two things that both appear to be true.
I have a few thoughts on this that I’ll share next week. I’ll try not to explain things that I have no business explaining, and I promise I’ll try not to offer simple answers to questions that are way out of my league.
But for now I’ll simply list some of the Scriptures that overwhelmed me as I read Frame’s book.
God’s Control Over Human History
- God has determined the histories of nations – when and where they shall live (Acts 17:26)
- God is king over all nations, not just Israel (Psalm 45:6-12; Psalm 47:1-9; Psalm 95:3)
- Kings do whatever God wants them to (Proverbs 21:1; Romans 9:17; Exodus 9:16; Exodus 14:4)
- God governs the events of human history for his purposes (Psalm 33:10-11)
- Nations do God’s bidding (Isaiah 10:5-12; Isaiah 14:24-27; Isaiah 37:26)
- God does as he pleases with the peoples of the earth (Daniel 4:24-35)
- God determined beforehand how he used a historical figure (Isaiah 44:28; Isaiah 45:1-13), even though that figure undoubtedly exercised his own volition in accomplishing God’s purposes (Ezra 1:1)
- “For from him and through him and to him are all things.” (Romans 11:36)
God’s Control Over Individual Human Lives
- God brings about the free decisions of certain people such as Cyrus (Isaiah 44:28) and those involved with the betrayal and death of Jesus (Luke 22:22; Acts 2:23-24; Acts 3:18; Acts 4:27-28; Acts 13:27)
- God controls the course of individual human lives (Jeremiah 1:5; Ephesians 1:4)
- The individual events of our lives are subject to God’s will (James 4:13-16)
- God directs the hearts of all people (Psalm 33:15)
- God not only forms the purposes of our hearts, he determines the steps we will take to carry out these purposes (Proverbs 16:9; Proverbs 16:1; Proverbs 19:21)
- God changes the attitudes and actions of individuals (Judges 7:22; Daniel 1:9; Ezra 6:22)
- God brought the events of Jesus life to pass so that they fulfilled prophecy. People acted of their own free will and did not know they were fulfilling prophecy (Matthew 21:1-5; Matthew 26:55-56; Luke 22:22; Acts 13:27-29)
God’s Control Over Even Sinful Actions
Examples:
- The betrayal of Joseph by his brothers (Genesis 45:5-8)
- The hatred of the Israelites by the Egyptians (Psalm 105:25)
- The refusal of Pharaoh to release Israel (Exodus 3:19; Exodus 4:21)
- The refusal of Sihon to let Israel pass through his land on the way to Canaan (Deuteronomy 2:30)
- The evil spirit God sent on Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) and false prophets (1 Kings 22:20-23)
- The hardening of the people of Israel (Isaiah 6:9-10; Isaiah 63:17; Romans 9-11)
- The betrayal and murder of Jesus (Acts 2:23; Acts 4:28; Acts 13:27; Luke 22:22)
Conclusion
The LORD works out everything to its proper end—
even the wicked for a day of disaster.
(Proverbs 16:4)In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will. (Ephesians 1:11)
At every turn, the Biblical writers see God’s hand in everything that takes place. God is in control of everything – our lives, our desires, our actions – even the sinful ones. He is able to control things so that they accomplish his purposes. At the same time, humans make meaningful choices and are in no way puppets – as contradictory as this appears to us.
On Monday I’ll try to draw some tentative conclusions.
{ 33 comments… read them below or add one }
Darryl,
I guess I would ask where the picture of God Jesus paints with the Parable of the Prodigal Son fits into this reasoning. The Father allows the son to see the Father as dead (giving him his inheritance), allows him to walk away to live as a wastrel, spends many hours of the day looking out on the horizon, waiting in hope for the son’s return – and when he does return in a smelly, ugly state – the Father rushes to him and professes his unending love for the son.
Or was Jesus not describing God, the Father in this parable?
Bill:
The parable is not meant to teach us everything about God. Obviously a human character in a story is not going to have all the attributes of God, even if that character represents God. For instance, the father in the parable isn’t omnipotent, but that isn’t an argument against God’s omnipotence.
As far as the son who wandered, there’s no problem there. Somehow we make free choices that are under God’s control. The son made a free choice just as we do. I can’t reconcile how God’s control and our seemingly free choices go together, but that seems to be what Scripture teaches. As frustrating as it is, my lack of understanding doesn’t negate what Scripture teaches.
Bill,
Try looking at the three parables in Luke 15 as 1 parable, which is what the opening of the chapter says anyway.
“1Now the tax collectors and “sinners” were all gathering around to hear him. 2But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”
3Then Jesus told them this parable:”
What follows is a parable regarding salvation of sinners demonstrating aspects of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The parable of the Good Shepherd is a picture of Jesus going out to find lost sheep and bringing them back to the Father. The parable of the lost coin is a picture of the Holy Spirit seeking out those who are dead in sin. The parable of the Prodigal Son is about how God the Father welcomes back those who have been searched for by the Spirit and rescued by the Son.
How does that clash with anything Darryl said?
Hey Darryl,
Again, I don’t see how those verses are so overwhelmingly convincing. Two things occur to me. First, they can be interpreted differently without much of a stretch (meaning both views have credible and clear possibilities). Second, just as the parable Bill cites cannot teach us everything about God, neither can all these verses apart from all the Scriptures that would suggest other possibilities.
I appreciate the concept of antinomy (though Kant always overwhelms me – wink), but I can’t reconcile this particular issue. I look forward to reading more. Thanks!
Peace,
Jamie
Jamie:
The challenge for me is that I can’t really come up with many passages that say that things are outside of God’s control. But passage after passage points to God’s control over everything, even the things we would prefer to say are outside of his control.
The same with human freedom. Scripture just assumes that God is in control and yet people make seemingly free choices and are not puppets. It assumes this but it doesn’t explain it.
The arguments against this seem to be more logical than Scriptural from what I can see. In other words, it’s not contradictory texts, but it’s from trying to make sense of how all of this can work.
“It preserves human freedom, which is implicit in Scripture. People are not puppets. They make choices and decisions that are meaningful”
Hi Darryl, I’m trying to grasp the details of what you’re suggesting. Does it go something like God dictates some things but allows Humans to choose the others? And the things humans choose do not upset God’s overall plan?
Jacob:
The section you quoted is about a view that I don’t actually hold – that God controls some things but concedes control of other things to humans. I find this view attractive but without Scriptural support.
Here’s the view that I hold: Somehow God is in control of all things, and yet that doesn’t violate our freedom. I can’t get my mind around this, but it’s what Scripture seems to teach.
Great discussion. It’s making it hard for me not to post my next entry on this topic, which I’ve got scheduled for Monday.
So you have no problem using the term “human freedom”? I know most Calvinists cringe at this term and would rather say “human responsibility”.
Jacob:
I have no problems with using the term “human freedom” – although I think it has to be held in balance with God’s control. Both are true. I agree with Frame when he says, “Our definition of freedom must somehow be consistent with God’s sovereignty over the human will.”
But isn’t the “balance” broken then? It seems that Frame is suggesting God’s soverignty controls the human will. Seems that his definition of human freedom is in fact no freedom at all then.
Jacob:
It’s both genuine freedom and under God’s control. It’s an antinomy: both are true, even though they appear to be contradictory.
Again, I think the “everything” and “always” are read into the texts not apparent. The verses you cite are explicit in affirm God’s active (though not necessarily universal) will. I believe that there are several verses that suggest the other view, though they are usually dismissed as rhetorical. Further, there are implicit affirmations, but of course those are also prone to interpretive bias.
Jamie,
You’re right – many of these verses are about specific examples. But the pattern is consistent. Other verses are very general in speaking of God’s control.
Beyond that, some of the specific examples require a mind-boggling level of control, spanning generations and countless details.
What are some verses that you think suggest the other view? Ones like Genesis 6:6?
Hey Darryl,
Genesis 6:6 does offer a counter-point (or could, depending on ones interpretation). There are others (and this is by no means exhaustive):
Exodus 13:17; Isaiah 5:2-4; Jeremiah 3:6-7, 19-20; Jeremiah 19:5; Ezekiel 22:30-31
Again, all these can be read differently depending upon ones presuppositions. Faced with these verses, though, I can see how you would accept antinomy. I just wonder if that is only necessary because of the assumption that the verses you site are meant to be seen as referring to all things, rather than some.
For me, though, it is Matthew 26:39 that is most meaningful. The mystery of Christ, God incarnate having a different will than the Father (without it being sin), yet choosing to submit to the Other. It seems to me that the centrality of that willing obedience to the Gospel power and message makes Jesus’ absolutely free choice necessary.
Any thoughts? I am no theologian, relying on a high school education and a lot of reading, so I appreciate your willingness to engage so patiently.
Peace,
Jamie
Darryl,
Once again, an excellent post. I appreciate your thorough approach.
Still, I must point out that none of these passages preclude the Kingdom-oriented view of God’s sovereignty I briefly summarized in my last two posts. For anyone who takes scripture seriously (as I think we all do here) there is no question that an important theme of the bible is that, “God is in control.” That’s not really in dispute.
However, the question remains: at what level of circumstance is his control exercised? I don’t think the pattern of scripture leads to the conclusion that God is intimately in control of everything at all times. In fact, the passages you cite, which comfort us with the reminder that God is actually in control, are in the far minority. The overwhelming tenor of the entire rest of the bible is that we are freely and willfully outside his control. That’s why we need the comfort of his broader, long-range sovereignty in the first place.
For example, if God is intimately in control of everything at all times then the fall of man doesn’t make sense, the law doesn’t make sense, God’s anger and compassion don’t make sense, the prophetic exhortations for repentance don’t make sense, the gospel of the kingdom doesn’t make sense, the sermon on the mount doesn’t make sense, the parables of the kingdom don’t make sense, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit doesn’t make sense, teaching doesn’t make sense, prayer doesn’t make sense, acts of kindness and mercy and justice don’t make sense – because all of these presume a broken world in which people normally have the ability to make choices outside God’s control. Every time scripture chastises God’s people for doing the wrong thing, that “suggests the other view.” Every time scripture exhorts us to do one thing over and against another thing (i.e. the law of Moses, the sermon on the mount, half of Paul’s epistles, virtually all of James, John and Peter’s epistles) it is a passage that “suggests the other view.” These passages are too numerous to cite and, frankly, taken together they dwarf the passages that remind us of God’s sovereign power – passages that, when examined closely, do not actually claim the total control of God over all things at all times, only the total power of God, or the power of God exercised in certain circumstances.
Given this, I believe it’s quite valid to say the overall pattern of the biblical narrative depicts man’s dilemma of living in a world that has been divorced from God by sin. Such a world is frightening and full of death. Therefore, the scriptures are full of reassurances that in spite of the obvious chaos, God is still, in a larger sense, in charge and driving history toward his inevitable victory and the ultimate vindication of his people.
This view still respects God’s sovereignty, it simply says that – for the time being – God has restrained himself from exercising the full extent of his power to intervene so that he might instead redeem us with our capacity for love fully intact.
Jamie:
Some of those verses are used to question not only God’s control but also his knowledge of the future. I’m not convinced. It seems more likely to me that they are emotionally charged verses, describing God’s emotions in ways that we can understand, and not as a God who’s caught by surprise or didn’t see things developing the way they did. Of course, that is a whole other topic – the open theism debate.
The Matthew one I think is significant, not in terms of limiting God’s control, but in showing that the struggle for Christ was real.
I’m still overwhelmed by the passages that point to the extensive nature of God’s control – but I sure understand the struggle in resolving this. It really is not easy to understand how evil and human freedom coexists with God’s absolute control.
Jason:
I really like your reminder about the kingdom. I think you’re right that God’s control has to be understood in light of the fact that the kingdom has not yet fully come – it’s already, but not yet. That clearly means that evil is present, that the world is broken, and that not everything is submitted to his reign.
My problem is that I don’t think this necessarily means that God has ceded control. On the contrary, some of the passages I mentioned show that God is control even in the actions of people and nations in rebellion against him. Esther came to mind tonight as I thought about this. Satan and evil are present, but they still seem to be ultimately under God’s control so that things are moving to accomplish his purposes.
This isn’t the final word, and I think your reminder of the kingdom in relation to this question is important.
One more thing: I’m struck by the fact that in heaven sin evidently won’t be an option for us, yet we will fully love God. I’m wondering what this does for our normal argument that we need the freedom to rebel in order to have the freedom to love. That may be for another day.
I’m really appreciating this interaction.
Darryl,
Me too.
I’m glad you brought up the last question – about sinning in heaven (by the way, when you say “in heaven” do you mean the intermediate state after death, or the resurrected bodily existence we’ll enjoy forever in the new heaven and new earth?). Coincidentally, I’d been thinking quite a bit about this very conundrum prior to this week. While it’s obviously a peripheral question, I don’t see it as unimportant, and it has bearing on this topic. I’m not sure I see any indication that sinning isn’t an option – only that all the consequences of sin will have been conquered. I think it’s arguable that we will be able to sin – as fallen angels themselves did – but that we simply won’t, having on earth “learned obedience through the things [we] suffered.”
Darryl, you are right that these verses have been used to question God’s foreknowledge. That was not my intention, only to demonstrate that there are Scriptures that make the absolute control of God a less likely interpretation. Since none of the Scriptures you listed MUST be read as absolute, but are open to the tempering of the wider Scriptures, why assume the absolute as though it is necessary rather than simply possible?
Peace,
Jamie
But isn’t this antinomy thing just smoke and mirrors for a flat contradiction. How can you get off the hook of explaining the coherence of absolute sovereignty on God’s part and human freedom on the other?
Jason,
We may not agree on the answer, but you have really labelled the issue: the degree of God’s control. How does God’s control work with human freedom? Thanks for thoughtful responses.
Jason:
Good thoughts. Heaven – yes, by that I mean the new heavens and the new earth.
Jamie:
I think Frame was right in saying you can dodge a rock or two from the verses listed (he lists way more), but you can’t avoid the whole avalanche.
Wayne,
Yes, at moments I wonder if it’s not a cop-out on my part. But Scripture really does seem to say that God controls everything, and yet we act freely.
An antinomy is not the same thing as a contradiction. It means that our understanding is limited. It shouldn’t be surprising to us that there are things about God that we don’t understand.
Hi Darryl, I can’t get this issue out of my head. When push comes to shove I guess I hold to the same view as you – the problem is I hate it. Being a logical person, I sympathize with what Wayne is saying. When discussing this topic with skeptics and critics at work they just roll their eyes and walk away from the conversation if I go down this path.
What really bothers me is the slippery slope it creates. We’re basically implying human logic is worthless and can’t be trusted. This makes living a Christian life difficult because as you know the Bible isn’t a textbook or a rule book addressing our circumstances precisely. We have to piece together the principles and use logical determination. If we can’t trust our logic then I feel in jeopardy of not having much in the way of objective truth available to us. What do you think about this?
Jacob:
I share you’re frustration. I wish I could get my head around this.
I think it’s important to emphasize, though, that incomprehensible and illogical are two different things. This is not a case of God’s sovereignty and human freedom being illogical; it’s simply beyond our understanding. I haven’t got into the explanations that people have posed, but it gets pretty complex: middle knowledge or molinism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molinism), the difference between God’s decretive and permissive wills, if any, etc. God stands both in and outside of time as well, which bears on the whole subject.
I have a post on this coming later today. I wish I could explain this, but I don’t think that this view is illogical as much as it is beyond what we’re able to fully comprehend or explain.
Thanks Darryl. I’m gonna read about Molinsim/Middle Knowledge. I’ve heard that William Lane Craig is a proponent of this. I’ve read some of his other works of apologetics and have enjoyed them. I think I’ll start with him.
Hey Darryl,
I guess I just disagree. I think that A ) there is an equal avalanche implicitly suggesting an alternative view(s) and B ) that most of the verses cited are not overwhelming or explicitly suggesting the absolute. Taken together without equal attention given to other Scriptures I can understand the perspective, but beyond that I cannot. This is why I think this issue is hard to discuss hermeneutically, as such clearly different reads on the same Scripture are possible.
Peace,
Jamie
Jamie,
I grant that some of the verses you list are open to some interpretation, so they are a little ambiguous. But I’m having a hard time seeing some of the verses I’ve listed in the same way. Yes, some of them are equally open to interpretation, but others are absolutely clear.
I guess one could argue that both sides are clear and we’re left with trying to reconcile them. That makes more sense to me, but even then I think the evidence is much stronger that God is in control but still experiences emotion and communicates in a way that we understand (like that he regrets decisions he has made, etc.).
I think that one would have to understand other passages as well, like the book of Esther, completely differently if we believe God doesn’t have absolute control.
In any case, I appreciate the interaction. Wish I could sit down with you to chat about this – and just get to know you better – in person.
3 points very quickly that i hope help, otherwise ignore them.
1. God made everyone, formed them very carefully
2. God knows everyone intimately – better than we know ourselves
3. God is outside of time.
framing the picture: as God is making you, setting up the way for you to think he is there at your first kiss, at your death, at your granddaughters wedding and your grandmothers second birthday party.
he knows how you think because he build the frame, gave you the parents you had.
when you need a friend for help, he is there and when you need to see him in someone he has created that other person too.
when he was telling the prophets what would happen he was there at it’s happening, he didn’t force Abram to leave his father, but he made him to ask questions, he gave him to a man to so he would be in a place to ask the right questions. he knew what answers Abram would draw because he could see those too so he prepared for the consequences of the questions.
I’ve yet to read the book though i’ve learned alot from it: Your God is Too Small by J.B> Phillips
Hey Darryl,
Yeah, I guess we are at an impasse on this one. I’d love to connect in person sometime too! I am sure it will happen eventually. Thanks!
Peace,
Jamie
Good article.
I have a question:
If God is in control of my life, am I still responsible for my actions?
Thanks.
Charles,
I’ve tried to point out the tension that while God is in control, we are still morally responsible agents. It’s a big topic, but there’s lots of good material out there on the topic.
Bottom line: we aren’t puppets. In some way we have “freedom” and are responsible for our actions.
I have been an evangelical christian for 35 year, and had learned about the” Great Antimony”. A Prebyterian pastor in the 90s had told me about it. I wondered about it even as a Lutheran,until I read “The Shack”, I learned that God is not into making puppets out of us.God wants genuine love not blindly obedient robots. I see myself as a gung-ho go-getter,who desires to exert all his energies to acquire or realize his objectives. However, if I let God have his ways I wouldn’t be making mistakes. i learned that it’s OK to make mistakes,because they are things to learn from for the future. My
failures will not shake God off his throne,nor weaken his love for me.
I take comfort in the fact that God is in control of everything, and eventhough I don’t understand it all; as long as he is in control, I know everything, even the bad things in my life, are for the good..Trust me; however, it isn’t easy not to lean to my own understanding, but these verses make it clear that God is in control!
Hey,
I’m reading the exact chapter of Frame that you referenced in your blog! I found your blog because I searched on the internet because I was confounded by the same problems you had.
It’s definitely something difficult for me to fully accept now, but by God’s grace, I hope to do so. His Word is authoritative, it commands my obedience.