Friday Questions: An Interview with Jared Wilson

Jared Wilson is a blogger, pastor, and author. His latest book Gospel Wakefulness came out last year, and made the list of top reads in lists by Trevin Wax and Aaron Armstrong.

I'm grateful to Jared for taking the time to be interviewed.

The gospel is earth-shaking. Why is it so easy to become numb to it?

Because we are stubborn and flesh-fixated. Because we're sinners and have to reset to gospel mode every day. I also think we get trained to think that the gospel is just relevant at the earth-shaking of conversion, so we reason that the Christian life is about moving on, or graduating, to "normal" spiritual things.

How did you become so fixated on the gospel in your own life and ministry?

Out of the train-wreck I made of my marriage. I had killed my marriage with secret sins and selfishness, and when I realized I had lost what was most important to me, I also began drowning in a depression that led me to think off and on about taking my own life. I spent a lot of time just crying out to God. He should have been my first hope, but it wasn't until all other hopes had been taken away that he became my only hope. And in one vivid repentant moment of crying out to him, face down on the guest bedroom floor where I had banished myself, I heard the Spirit say to my heart, "I love you and I approve of you." I knew of course that God did not approve of what I had done or of my sinful self, but I knew he approved of me in Christ. Like the prodigal son in the pigsty, I "came to myself" in that moment. And while I am still a sinful, struggling, idiotic person, I know a joy in Jesus now I had not before, and it has shaped my life and drives my ministry today.

What would you say to someone who thinks that "gospel-centered" is a passing fad?

That they could be right. Only time will tell. I don't think it is a fad, however, because of the variety within the movement of various movements, denominations, generations, and organizations. And the similarity it bears to historical recoveries of the gospel. But, yes, it's quite possible that in seeking gospel-centrality in the church, we are deceiving ourselves with a sort of sloganeering gospel-centered-centrality. We have to be on guard about that and remember to delight in Jesus more than a movement. I don't think it's a passing fad, but I want to be cautious and realistic about human nature.

How does "Gospel Wakefulness" apply to some of the recent controversies about how we're sanctified?

The way I develop gospel wakefulness in the book upholds the passive nature of salvation -- that we are saved totally by God's grace received through faith -- while rebuking any passivity in worship. In other words, this is not the Keswick type "let go and let God" kind of thing. Two chapters in particular hone in on identifying idols, killing sin, and embracing the spiritual disciplines of Scripture reading and prayer. Wakened people "move." Nobody becomes holy by accident. Gospel wakefulness comes at sanctification from the angle that justification drives sanctification; that our part in the work of holiness must be a worshipful response, what awed people do in response to that awe.

Can you tell us about your next book with Matt Chandler?

It's called The Explicit Gospel, but it's not my book with Matt; it's his book. I was just privileged to assist in the organizing of the material and some of the shaping of his message. But it's really helpful in that Matt approaches the gospel from the two angles many have turned into a false dichotomy -- Creation/Fall/Redemption/Consummation and Man/Sin/Christ/Response. Matt calls these The Gospel in the Air and The Gospel on the Ground and shows how we need both approaches to be faithful to the biblical portrait of the good news of Jesus. He also shows what dangers lay in neglecting one or the other. It releases from Crossway/Re:Lit in April, and we believe it will be a valuable contribution to the gospel-centered movement and the evangelical church at large.

Thanks, Jared.

Questions After the Elephant Room

I was grateful to attend a simulcast of The Elephant Room yesterday. It's an event that brings well-known leaders together for honest conversations about differing approaches to ministry.

If you missed the event and want to read a summary of the sessions, Trevin Wax did an excellent job summarizing the day:

• Session 1
• Session 2
• Session 3
• Session 4
• Session 5
• Session 6
• Session 7
• Session 8

The tone of the event was different from last year's. The build-up was far more controversial, but the actual event seemed less combative. I wasn't able to attend the entire day, but I enjoyed what I saw.

The biggest controversy about the event was the inclusion of T.D. Jakes as a guest. Some have accused Jakes of being a modalist. Others welcomed the opportunity to hear Jakes explain his views on the Trinity. The controversy resulted in James MacDonald resigning from The Gospel Coalition earlier this week.

Jakes appeared to affirm the Trinity yesterday, and many who attended seemed satisfied. I was encouraged by what I heard, but wished that I had a chance to hear Jakes explain a statement he made: "I believe the latter one [one God existing eternally in three persons] is where I stand today. One God – Three Persons. I am not crazy about the word persons though." That's a pretty significant statement. I heard Jakes say this and wanted to know more. Trevin Wax also captured this statement in his summary, although it doesn't appear in Mark Driscoll's summary of the same session.

Trevin Wax has suggested that The Elephant Room is a snapshot of contemporary evangelicalism, and I agree.

Here are some questions that I'm wrestling with in the aftermath of The Elephant Room:

How are our tribes shaping us? The Elephant Room exposed divisions within The Gospel Coalition. People seemed to line up in step with their affiliations with groups like Acts 29 and Harvest Bible Fellowship. Evangelicalism seems to be split into overlapping tribes that sometimes clash. How are these tribes shaping us?

How do we handle the size and influence of movement leaders? The speakers at The Elephant Room are movement leaders who influence large numbers of people through their networks. American evangelicalism seems to have produced a fairly large number of leaders whose influence is massive. This is both a danger and an opportunity. How do we take advantage of the opportunities while avoiding the dangers of strong movement leaders?

How do we deal with theological controversies? There were some shots fired at those who raised theological concerns, and those who criticize books like Real Marriage. "I’m surprised by how hard it was to get people in a room to talk," MacDonald said. "Frankly I’m embarrassed." How can we deal with significant theological issues and critique ideas and books in a way that's constructive and honoring to God? As Ian Clary says, "Genuine theological concerns are not the same as mere stone-throwing, or rhetoric."

What's the role of the Internet? I was floored by the number of tweets with the hashtag #ElephantRoom. I simply couldn't keep up. Much of the controversy took place on the Internet. Confidential emails seem to be leaked online even in Christian circles within hours. I've seen two leaked letters this week posted on blogs. How is the Internet shaping the way that we relate to others in the Church?

These are some of the questions I'm wrestling with after The Elephant Room.

What do you think? What questions does The Elephant Room raise in your mind?

Lego and the Gender Powder Keg

You may have heard the news about Lego this week:

The Lego backlash was perhaps inevitable. When the maker of countless little coloured bricks sold all over the world decided to create a line of products designed specifically with girls in mind, it was broaching a delicate subject.

Sure enough, as Lego Friends was being rolled out this month, sets in which the girls of Heartlake City can do things like visit the vet and hang out at an ice cream café, criticism descended upon the Danish toy giant.

The problem is that this new Lego isn't gender-neutral. It used to be back when Lego was freestyle, but now it's sold in kits and marketed mainly to boys. This is the first time in recent history that it's been marketed to girls, and it's an issue.

Gender is a powder keg.

I've seen a couple of things this week that have reminded me that gender is a powder keg for the church as well. We need to be thoughtful as we approach this important issue.

I don't want to get into the whole gender role debate (egalitarianism vs. complementarianism) in this post. Instead I want to touch on two truths that we need to hold together as we face this explosive issue.

Men and Women Are Equal

Both men and women are image-bearers of God, equal before him. Wayne Grudem, a well-known complementarian (someone who believes that men and women are equal but have different roles and functions), writes:

…men and women have been created by God to be equal in their importance and personhood. When God created man, he created both “male and female” in his image (Gen. 1:27; 5:1–2). Men and women are made equally in God’s image and both men and women reflect God’s character in their lives…

…certainly men and women are equally important to God and equally valuable to him. We have equal worth before him for all eternity. The fact that both men and women are said by Scripture to be “in the image of God” should exclude all feelings of pride or inferiority and any idea that one sex is “better” or “worse” than the other. (Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine)

We have to be clear that men and women are absolutely equal in value before God. Both men and women bear the image of God. Both genders are needed to reflect God's image as human beings.

I'm concerned that we don't always communicate this. This can't just be lip service. We need to pay attention to the subtle ways that we imply a lack of value or an attitude of superiority to either gender. Both men and women are equal in their importance and personhood before God.

Men and Women are Different

This is a controversial statement these days. Of course, men and women are different physically. But they're also different in other ways. One psychologist writes:

Women … have four times as many brain cells (neurons) connecting the right and left side of their brain. This latter finding provides physical evidence that supports the observation that men rely easily and more heavily on their left brain to solve one problem one step at a time. Women have more efficient access to both sides of their brain and therefore greater use of their right brain. Women can focus on more than one problem at one time and frequently prefer to solve problems through multiple activities at a time. Nearly every parent has observed how young girls find the conversations of young boys "boring". Young boys express confusion and would rather play sports than participate actively in a conversation between 5 girls who are discussing as many as three subjects at once!

What I like about this paragraph is that it focuses on some of the ways that women are ahead of men. The same can be said in other areas. What makes a team smarter, according to the Harvard Business Review? More women. Not a bad finding.

Some will argue that the differences between men and women are socially constructed, but I think most will agree that men and women are inherently different. The differences are not only significant, but they are a source of great joy.

The Challenge

Some who emphasize the equality of men and women tend to downplay the differences. And some who emphasize the differences tend to downplay equality. We somehow need to embrace both truths, especially when this issue is such a volatile one.

• Churches of all stripes should be known for valuing both men and women, both in belief and practice. Sexism has no place in the church.
• Churches of all stripes should celebrate the differences between men and women. This doesn't mean catering to stereotypes. It does mean that we're honest and winsome in how we express the differences.

What do you think? Does this make sense? How can the church flesh out these two theological truths in the context of so much gender controversy?

Real Marriage

I should have known Real Marriage would be controversial. It is, after all, by Mark and Grace Driscoll, and Mark Driscoll seems to be in trouble a good deal of the time. As I write this I have several friends who almost lose it when Driscoll's name comes up. I have several other friends who appreciate him, even though they recognize his faults. Why did I agree to review this book again?

Well, it's too late. I did agree to review the book. I began reading, and it wasn't long before I got to some controversial bits. When Grace cuts her hair short, Mark disapproves. "She had put a mom's need for convenience before being a wife," he writes. Say what? I remember being surprised by my wife's haircut one time, but I'm not sure I would have put it this way. He makes a few statements like this that made me scratch my head.

Early on the Driscolls talk very openly about the struggles they've experienced in their marriage. Kudos to them for this. Their openness and honesty is important. This section is pretty raw, though, and it left me feeling a little defensive of Grace. And I've never been sure what to think about Mark's visions, such as the one he has of Grace committing a sexual sin around the time they started to date. Even if you believe in revelatory visions, it's unusual to think of one that is as sexually graphic as this one.

Once you get past the first chapter, you're into the best part of the book. The chapter on friendship in marriage is good. The chapters addressed to men and women respectively are also fairly well done. The chapter on taking out the garbage -- dealing with sin and conflict -- is also helpful and important. These chapters are the best in the book.

Strangely, the next five chapters are on sex. That's half the book. Sex is certainly a topic that needs to be covered, and the Driscolls do cover some important ground here. They talk about a biblical understanding of sex, and recovering from abuse, and breaking free from porn. Perhaps it takes half a book to deal with this area of marriage because we're all sexually broken, but it is a big part of the book.

The most controversial chapter in the book is chapter 10, "Can We ____?" I have no problem with honest questions, and I'm amazed at how well some people answer them. The grid that the Driscolls use, however, is a little too simple, and it never gets to some of the deeper issues that need to be explored. I would use this chapter as a discussion starter, but a lot more needs to be said in answering some of the questions.

The final chapter is a simplified guide to setting goals as a couple. It would be a useful chapter to go through as a married couple. The questions are good, and I'm sure they'd start some good discussions.

I get why the reaction to this book is so mixed. Some like it, and I can see why. There is lots that's good about this book, and I'm glad the Driscolls tackle tough topics with honesty and candour. But I also get why some struggle with this book. It's a little too hard on Grace at points, a little too harsh sometimes in general. It goes fearlessly into areas that need to be addressed, but maybe a bit of fear would be appropriate.

I'm not sure how long the Driscolls have been married, but it seems to be less than twenty years. At this point they have lots to share, and I'm sure their congregation is benefiting. But it may be too soon for a book on marriage.

I hate pile-ons, and I really don't like that the Driscolls have become such a target. I appreciate a lot about them and their ministry, and I'm sure this book will prove useful to many. But it's not the book it could be. It's a book with good points, but with too many flaws to ignore. That's too bad, because there's so much to like about this book, but so much that leaves me feeling disappointed.

More on Amazon.com

Advanced Reader's Copy of the book has been provided courtesy of Thomas Nelson and Graf-Martin Communications, Inc. Available at your favorite bookseller from Thomas Nelson.

Church Plant Update

We're pretty excited about church planting. We finished our ministry at Richview on January 15th. We're supposed to be taking a few weeks off to paint and rest, but we're finding it hard not to get working on what's coming next.

In this post I want to give a bit of an update, answer some questions we're hearing a lot, and most importantly, ask for your prayers.

Where is the church going to be?

Good question! We're looking in the downtown Toronto area. Our ideal location would be somewhere that's growing in population (new condos and development), and that lacks existing churches. There are quite a few pockets in Toronto that meet these criteria.

We have our eyes on one location in particular. We spent some time there yesterday. We're incredibly excited about this area and can see lots of potential there. Please pray for wisdom as we investigate further.

When do you start?

Between now and the summer I'll be visiting churches, building a core group and raising support. We hope to get the core group going in the summer, and launch sometime in the Fall.

Who is in your core group?

We're planting as part of the Toronto Association of the Fellowship, and we're building a core group from within that group of churches, as well as others who may be interested. Please pray that God will prepare those who should be part of this new church.

Does Toronto really need another church?

Yes. See this document (PDF) by Tim Keller. It's what got me thinking about church planting in the first place.

I'd ask for your prayers. Specifically:

• that we will settle on a location, maybe even the one we've begun to explore
• that God would prepare those who are going to be part of our core team
• for some of the steps we need to take to get organized
• for spiritual protection and for unity as a family

God has been good to us so far, and it's clear that he's doing something. We can't wait to see what's coming next.

If you want to sign up to receive updates by email, then sign up here so we can stay in touch. We really appreciate your prayers.